The Terrible Truth About Ed Parker and Chinese Kenpo Karate

Chinese Kenpo Karate Scandal!

I’ve heard many tales of many martial arts that were, shall we say, less than honorable, but the one I heard about Chinese Kenpo Karate, however, is one of the worst I have heard. Unfortunately, I don’t know how true it is, but with the information I present in this article perhaps some one could let me know if they have any light to shed on the truth or falsity of it.
how to learn kenpo book Ed Parker is credited with being the creator of modern Kenpo, putting on the biggest tournament in the world for years, the Internationals, teaching movie stars, including Elvis, and all manner of other deeds. His prowess is quite well known, and his students are legion. Unfortunately, when he first began teaching, while he seemed to demonstrate a talent as a teacher, he was only a brown belt.

In those days he was actually teaching the Heian forms from Shotokan karate, this as illustrated by one of his earliest books. Running out of material to teach his students, he went back to Hawaii and was told to go take a hike, the founder of the system apparently had lost interest in him as a student. I’m not sure, exactly, what the fall out was, but it was perhaps that Ed was teaching without permission.

Ed then ran into a fellow in San Francisco named Jimmy Woo, whose named might have been Jimmy Wu, who knew tremendous and authentic gung fu, but who spoke almost no English. Ed brought Jimmy to Los Angeles, where they lived together, and where Jimmy devised the Kenpo forms, the techniques, and so on. Ed took these forms and techniques and began teaching them as his own.

To complicate matters further, Ed asked Jimmy to write a book with him on what they were doing, and Jimmy spent his days writing kenpo, teaching Ed and some of his students, all while still being deficient in the English language. One day Jimmy saw a rough translation/draft of the book that Ed was planning on turning over to a publisher, and he was surprised to see that his name was not on the cover, or anywhere in the book. This was surprising, because even though Ed was half the team, Jimmy was doing all the work.

Why not my name on book, is what he was supposed to have said. Ed said he would explain, but he had an errand to run, could they take a drive, and Ed would explain on the way. Jimmy got into the car, and Ed drove into Hollywood, but Ed didn’t say a word about the book the whole time. On Hollywood Blvd, there is an Armenian pastry shop there now, Ed let Jimmy out of the car, and drove off.

Jimmy had one single quarter in his pocket, the clothes on his back, and nothing else. With that last quarter he called one of Ed’s students, who he had been teaching. In his broken English he explained what Ed had done, that he didn’t know where he was, or why it had all happened.

He had been teaching, writing, and then, he had been betrayed. Now, is this story true, or is it a pack of lies? If anybody has definite information on this story, I sure would like to know.
monkey boxingThis page has been about Chinese Kenpo Karate.

 

1,802 Responses to The Terrible Truth About Ed Parker and Chinese Kenpo Karate

  1. Thank you for your article. I have heard some stories as well but have not heard this one before about Ed Parker. It is always sad when a student takes the less desirable path. It is even worse when they turn on other Martial Artists that are trying to help them. Do you have any idea what happened to Jimmy?

    Look forward to reading more of your articles.

    • Jimmy apparently got backing from some of Parker’s students and opened his own school. It was located on Hollywood Blvd. for decades. I used to pass by it and look in and wonder about it. It was dark and dingy, had tile floors. I think it is a bakery now. I’d love to find one of his students, find out what happened to him, guy must have stories up the wazoo about those days.

    • Per the article, the person Jimmy Woo called was my father, George Cadinha, and yeah, they left Ed. They kept Jimmy in Los Angeles, and they include: Rich Montgomery, Bart Volk, Dick Trausell, Rick Flores, Ted Tabura, Larry Hall, Bones (can’t recall his name), Gus Hoefling, and of course my father, yep, truth! They pooled their money, and rented the Hollywood Mausoleum, and a few of them couldn’t afford it, so they gave up their apts., and slept in the embalming room, truth, yep! Can you say commitment? :)
      After a few years, actor James Hong helped them move to a better facility, also on Hollywood Blvd. No embalming room, haha!
      Later, after my father and the others trailed off, due to marriage, family, etc…the new students were ushered in, and Jimmy moved to Winona Blvd., off of Hollywood Blvd. His students built him a huge structure in his backyard, to teach. Mayor Tom Bradley declared it a church of sorts; it was an interesting ceremony ;)
      Jimmy passed away in 2o14, but we still celebrate his birthday in China Town, Los Angeles, and hopefully will continue to do so for years to come!

  2. Parker learned Hawaiian Kempo from William CHow in the 1950’s. Hawaiian Kempo was a traditional Okinawan karate do system brought to Hawaii. He wanted to modernize the system which was, at the time, a traditional rendition of what could never be mistaken for applicable fighting techniques. Parker attempted to upgrade the old-school form into street-applicable science. He failed miserably. While his American Kenpo techniques did make a huge improvement in technical use, they held onto the traditional karate form that has failed so many people in so many fights. The result is an army of kenpo systems that study high-level techniques in front of a mirror, in simulated scenarios, and instructor prompted reactions. The martial artists never become fighters. When they do spar, they use none of what is taught in kenpo. Instead, they revert to kickboxing-like tactics. When you study through two or three v ersions of the system, it becomes apparent that Bruce Lee’s JKD Trapping influenced the development somehow. There is, however, very little Chinese influence in the system. Parker applied the trapping inspirations with a traditional karate body motion. His claim to Chinese ancestry is, at best, third generation; inherited from the old Okinawan karate do systems like Goju Ryu Karate Do.
    I have been a dedicated martial artist for 25 years. I started in the modern kenpo systems such as Ed Parker’s Original Kenpo System, Action Kenpo Karate, and a couple of others. I have also studied on the traditional Okinawan side, and the traditional korean side. In order for something to become Chinese in origin, it must adapt a CHinese body motion. For instance, a Japanese Karate Master cannot go to China and pass himself off as a Kung Fu Master; the body motions are completely different. There have been a few since Parker who achieved his goal for him. CHinese Kenpo and Mong Su Dom Tai Chinese Karate managed to set up mirror systems that incorporated Kung Fu and Indonesian body motion into their new generation techniques. When they move they look like Silat, Tai Chi, WIng Chun, and Chow Gar masters who are influenced by Wudan, Wushu, and/or Shaolin.
    As a final thought, if all traditional systems would eliminate the katas and set techniques from their systems, after extracting all the basic movements, and then teach and practice those movements the way a prize fighter does, most systems would develop high levels of applicability. Practical theory and proof of practicality are not the same thing. No second hand information can prepare you for a first hand confrontation.-Bruce Lee

    • To say it has very little Chinese influence is not true… Okinawan Kenpo is directly linked to Shaolin Kenpo or Chaun-fa.. The principles are the same… and both very effective. I studied both for several years and they are different but Chinese Kung fu influenced Okinawan Kenpo greatly..

      • and I agree with you on the forms.. or katas.. if you removed them.. or just used them for competition… and taught actual application of the technique you would have very practical fighters. in a ring or on the street… and yes… you are 100% right you can tell a Chinese Kenpo master and an Okinawan Kenpo master apart even if they switched uniforms…. one will move the body smoother and one will look more forceful.. I am sure you know which by the way I describe…. I don’t want to say… Which I prefer because I respect anyone who takes years to devote to an art, and pour their blood sweat and tears into it.

      • Jeremy,

        Check out the youtube video titled Interview with Tony Martinez Sr. He studied under Ed Parker. In the interview he is a 9th degree black belt in Kenpo, started out boxing, after 50 fights with 45 knockouts he moved into Kenpo. He even tells how he beat Carlos “Chuck” Norris in a tournament match. I really haven’t been unable to verify any of this, but I would like to be able too!

    • Haven’t enjoyed a piece such as this in a long time.. Thank You.
      #originality

  3. I started training with Sifu James Wing Woo in 1977 and he is like a second father to me. That story of Parker and Sifu is essentially true regarding the book, but he went on to build a successful practice and a dedicated group of students. He always teaches the classes himself, 363 days a year. Sifu Woo just celebrated his 90th birthday Sept 2012, and he is still teaching Kung Fu and Tai Chi daily from his gym in Hollywood CA (and the workouts are still tough!). Some good links for more info:
    http://stevensprung.wordpress.com/2009/11/08/tai-chi-by-james-wing-woo/
    http://rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic.php?p=116442#p116579
    This recent book from Sifu Woo is filled with wisdom and his experience
    http://www.lulu.com/shop/view-cart.ep;jsessionid=19D29DC82FA08E35DAAB43E3EE41569C
    Give yourself a gift and stop by the gym and take some classes from Sifu.
    Best, Bill Nadal

  4. It makes me sick when I hear how big and bad Ed Parker was.
    As much respect as I may have for Parker’ s work in bringing it to the masses, I lost quite a bit when I heard through very reliable sources that he linked out of a fight with boxer Milo Savage.
    Instead, Parker went and begged Gene La Bell to take the fight.
    Why did Parker refuse the challenge?
    He claims to have done some backyard boxing and that along with his size should have been a plus.
    Fact is that Savage a brutal launcher would have cleaned Parkers clock.
    Savage was a little over the hill, but as Ray Mercer proved when he put UFC chump Tim Sylvia to sleep, old or not a boxer can retain punching power well into his 50’s…George Foreman who?
    I knew Milio Savage very well.
    He was my boxing coach while I was training in Martial Art to earn my BB.
    We had many conversations over lunch and a brisket.
    They sicked La Bell on him and made him wear a go top.
    BTW…Gene had a lot of friends who were, you know like the guys in the Sopranos.
    A lot of intimidation.
    La Bell won hands down, but the big bad Hawaiian, the creator of American kenpo the great Ed Parker refused to accept the challenge, that’s a fact.

    • There is a famous statement that applies here, “Better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than speak (or post) and remove all doubt.” Unfortunately for you, Monfongo, I was there at the fight. And I was the one who contacted Ed Parker about the challenge. EVERYTHING YOU POSTED IS PURE CRAP! Here are the facts:
      * No one challenged Ed Parker.
      * The braggart challenge was to ANY martial artist. Because Savage was in Salt Lake I wanted to accept it.
      * I called Ed Parker in California to get his permission. He laughed out loud and asked me not to do so (He didn’t want Savage killed). Still chuckling, he said he’d ask his friend Gene Lebell to accept. I was disappointed but out of respect I agreed. The idea of Parker refusing a challenge is ridiculous and anyone who passes on these lies is an ASS. (For your information: TRUTH – Ed Parker was a “Bralah,” he grew up on the streets of Honolulu as a street fighter. After he developed his version of Kenpo he was in seven serious fights in his life. (a “serious” fight to Ed Parker was four or more armed attackers; clubs, knives, tire irons, bottles, etc. THE LONGEST OF THOSE FIGHTS LASTED 7 SECONDS!) Kenpo, as Ed Parker restructured it, was not a sport, it was not a game it was LIFE AND DEATH; The QUICK & THE DEAD!)
      * The night of the fight at the Salt Lake Fairgrounds, Savage entered the ring wearing heavy bag gloves
      ( the kind that have a heavy plastic insert over the knuckles). I personally complained to the referee. Gene laughed it off and said, “Let him wear brass knuckles if he wants.”
      * The fight was a total mismatch. LeBell toyed with Savage, pretended to have been hurt by a couple of body shots; and then stepped behind Savage and used the gi top to execute a scarf strangle. Savage was out in seconds.
      * They had difficulty in reviving Savage so I ripped off his right (black) boxing shoe and performed Kuatsu which brought him around.

      I am sick of hearing these phony stories from punks who never really knew my friend and brother. Unfortunately for them, there are still a few of us greybeards who are still around who were there and can set the record straight. Here is another FACT. You can’t make yourself taller but attempting to tear down the reputation of giants. I started with Ed Parker in 1954 when he was still at BYU. He was not only my only instructor, through the decades he became my friend and brother.

      Mills Crenshaw

      • Mr. Crenshaw,
        Thank you for stepping in the digital internet ring and keeping the record straight. I sadly never met Ed Parker, but I have met my share of his students and trained with them, such as Mike Pick, Huk Planas, Lee Wedlake, Skip Hancock, and more at the seminar/camp level, and private lessons with Mr. Welake. All of them said, Mr. Parker was the Alpha male in the room during those days. I can’t imagine Mr. Parker backing down, thanks for confirming none of this happened.

        Salute,
        Steve Shaffer
        Tallahassee, FL

        • Steve, Mills has verified nothing. He lies as demonetrated by 1. I never knew Ed, 2. He was never nanmed in a lawsuit in the Deseret News and no such article existr, I believe it is Dec. 1, 2001.3. Ed beat 5 armed wailors in 7 seconds armed with clubs and knives).
          You are obviously one of the brainwawhed that needs to believe this crap

      • Mr. Crenshaw,

        Loved reading your reply. I’m a student of Greg Payne in Chuck Sullivan and Vic LeRoux’s IKCA system. I’m interested in more stories of Ed and those around that time period if you wouldn’t mind sharing some with me. I love passing these stories on to my students. Chuck and Vic also love telling stories. My email is PUMA.Kenpo@gmail.com.

        Is your name Mills Crenshaw or a nickname? I thought Crenshaw was the name of a street where one of the dojo’s was located. We have a technique called Crenshaw High Five.

        Hope to get in touch with you. Much Respect.

        Osu!

      • Thank god someone out there is speaking some truth, there really is so much BS on the internet about Mr. Parker and it’s ridiculous. I’ve been looking around and it’s pretty much the same negative story about how ” he ran out of material” and was no longer recognized by Mr. Chow. Looks to me like this was a false story perpetuated by the Tracy brothers. http://www.tracyskaratestudios.com/martial-arts-history.htm#How_Tracy's_Kenpo_Jiu-Jitsu_Karate_Began. They got the axe because they were misrepresenting the ideals of the system. What did they do? They started a story they gave them the “good lighting”. Back in the day much of the good bits of the system were hidden so you could not misuse it and guess what, none of the Tracy guys fully understand the system lol!. Suckers… jokes on you. Even in death Mr. Parker had his way. Mr. Parker has plenty of material available on Amazon if you interested in the real story.

      • Good lord, this just reeks of so much BS! Ed Parker was out for a quick buck…period. His “modernized” Kenpo was nothing more than his get-rich-quick scheme. Don’t trust anyone who invents a new system before they’ve mastered the one they were learning…and don’t trust a sensei who’s too fat to do a sit-up.
        A guy too fat to run a block or do a sit up beats 5 guys with weapons in 7 seconds? Ha! Whatever. If it were true, he surely didn’t do it using his Kenpo.

  5. Ed was a fraud. I was at his school for 6 years, and in that time he taught two times and they weren’t even the full 2 hours.
    One serious question comes from Ed’s own credentials. Mills Crenshaw has presented us with Ed’s black belt certificate from William K.S. Chow. Why from Mills? Why not from Ed Jr. or his wife Lelani? In the 60s we asked to see Ed’s certificate. He said he didn’t know where it was. But the one presented by Mills Crenshaw says Ed is a shodan or 1st. degree black belt. So where did Ed get all the degrees leading up to his 10th. degree? And many say Ed never got a black, but rather his highest belt was hrown.
    So let’s get to the “real Ed Parker.” I trained at the West Los Angeles school, sometimes referred to as the “Santa Monica” school as it was on Santa Monica Blvd. I trained Monday through Friday in the afternoons and evening classes, and then went in on Saturday, which is when Dan Inosanto taught. So I basically lived there. I used to train with Larry Hartsell when he came in on Saturdays, and GOD was that an experience. Classes there were taught on Tuesday and Thursday by Scott Loring- a truly PHENOMENAL fighter. The Monday-Wednesday class was taught by “Stormin Norman Pattiz.” Not even close to Scott’s level but a very competent teacher. And Norm even developed a couple of really good techniques- one called the “high five” and the other the “back knuckle five.” After Scott left his classes were taken over by Russ Fineman. Russ was a small man- but he cut his teeth sparring with Scott Loring. Russ was like 5’6″ and 135, Scott was 6 feet tall and 210. Russ fought like a cross between a game cock and a cat. After Russ left Paul Dalton took over the classes on Tuesday-Thursday, and Paul has a deep seated hate for Ed Parker due to Ed totally screwing him over. The reason for this little history lesson is point something out- you never see any reference to Ed PArker teaching. And all his classes at Pasadena, the home school were taught by people like Frank Trejo, Dave Hebler or others.
    Now the plot thickens. One of Ed’s teachers, Robert Libby, had left the school and was teaching at a health club. So Robert got inot a verbal arguemnt with a PArker green belt. The green belt was bad mouthing Paul Dalton, a very good friend and teacher of Robert’s, so Bob finally told the guy to shit up and walked. The green belt called ed and told him that Robert had torn up his black belt certificate in front of the entire gym, urinated on it and said “Ed PArker isn’t shit.” Ed Believed it and called the health club. He told the owner “Bob goes or I come down there and start hurting people.” So the guy told Robert he had to leave. And Robert was a key figure in rebuilding Ed’s schools after Ed was closed down by the IRS, told Ed he would teach for free until the schools got back on their feetm and repainted and washed down 3 of Ed’s schools for free. And can you oimagine a guy urinating in public in a posh Westwood health club? That is how Ed Parker pays back those that are loyal to him. Ed was a scumbag, a thief, a liar, a fraud, and I beklieve mentally ill.
    So did Robert take this lying down? NO!! He called Ed at his house from the phone of Tom Bleecker. He told Ed “when and where do you want to fight?’ (I do not know all the exact details of this exchange, but I do know that Tom Bleecker and Gary Brandoliono were there). A few hours later Lelani called Robert at home and said “please don’t kill my husband! He has a very bad heart and could die if he fights.”
    So this is why Ed never trained and never did much of anything. He was nothing but a fat-mouthed coward.
    And as one last note- if you are studying Ed Parker’s American Karate you are throwing your money away. The techniques are crap and canot work in a real fight. As many others have mentioned, why isn’t there one video of a Kenpo being used in a real fight? Because they are a fraud and do not work, just like their creator.

    • To be told is to be lied to. To be shown is to be fooled. But to feel is to beleave. You are a cowerd. You are a parrot. Were wear your words when he was alive.

    • You need to loosen your tin foil hat pal. Get into a no holes barred fight with a kenpo practioner than let us know how ineffective the art is…dumbass

      • You should read the whole thing. Seems a lot of people say what I say, Another Kenpo black belt talks about Ed getting his ass kicked. Others agree that I chose Ed off. Now please submit one video where Ed even looks decent. I can post numerous ones where he looks pathetic. Now go loosen your tin foil hat.

  6. I knew the truth would come out.
    Parker was to a degree “hype” more than skill.
    He used to create techniques and carry them around on index cards.
    Instead of training, he’s writing stuff most that doesn’t work.
    Listen, the man has passed and maybe these things should have been brought up when he was alive, but the truth must be made public.
    Every Parker kenpoist I’ve seen spar or fight never uses the system techniques.
    Now, kajukenbo guys those are different animals.
    Most can fight and a great majority have pretty decent boxing skills.
    Parker did a lot to popularize and promote the arts, but on a skill-fight- condition level he was not up to par.
    Just my 2 cents.

  7. My friend “Willy” Shakespeare said it best: “Hark, hark how the dogs do bark; the beggars are coming to town.” These fictional tales about Ed Parker are, as “Willy” would put it, are: “a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying NOTHING!”

    Most martial artists have never been in a serious fight in their life. Ed Parker had seven that I know of. (See my response to Monfongo for the definition of a “Serious fight.) Ron and Vito you are very brave to bad mouth “The Old Man” now that he’s gone. I don’t know you, you must be young bucks to so ignorantly shoot your mouths off. I’m 77 so I’m sure you would be far more than a match for me; and I was only trained in the hard school by Ed Parker whom you consider a fraud so I’m sure my poor skills are no match for your exalted expertise. However, if you would like to visit Salt Lake I would be happy to drag my weary bones on the matt and let you show me the error of my ways. We can use the studio facilities of one of my students, Tony Martinez at 4654 West 3500 South. Or perhaps you would prefer to workout with Tony, he’s 5′ 3,” white haired and only age 62 and he too was trained be me in what you consider to be a “fraudulent” system. Either of us would be happy to entertain you…bring your lunch.

    Cordially,
    Mills Crenshaw

    • What these MMA fans don’t understand is that Ed Parker was in the process of helping others begin dojos, promoting Kenpo in America, working in films as an actor/fight coordinator, Elvis body guard etc. When would a man as busy as Ed Parker be able to teach regularly? There are many bad schools, that is obvious and backed up by videos on youtube. There are also great schools that are ran by black belts who devoted their entire lives to Karate. Don’t get me wrong, MMA produces incredible prize fighters… that study martial arts! Imagine what these MMA fighters(who devote their lives to different Martial art principles would do outside of a ring to someone without a cup, referee, mouthguard, gloves, and a padded cage. That is when you would see Karate in action, not in a tournament governed by rules concerning the safety of the fighters.

      • Matt, the answer to your question is easy to find. Just go to YouTube and watch some candid videos made on people’s cellphones if real street fights where an MMA practioner is in the fight. It’s just that simple. The reality is that without a referee, the MMA guys don’t have to stop until they’re done strangling you or breaking your arms. I’m not an MMA practitioner but I know that no American Kenpo guy would be victorious against an MMA trained fighter.

    • Mills, as part of a job I had for the city cleaning drunks and druggies off the streets, putting them in a paddy wagon, and dropping them off at jail to sober up, I’ve been in lots of serious fights with grown men. Unfortunately for us, to present a more “helpful” image the city did not allow us any weapons or restraints (e.g. Handcuffs). We were only permitted a flashlight of any size or design we chose. I studied Kenpo for awhile too. So I’ll clear it up for you right now very simply–American Kenpo does NOT work in a real fight. I know from experience. In a real fight, a guy doesn’t throw a low speed punch and hold it there while you work your 15 different counter moves on him–and that’s what you’d need for that joke of a system to work.
      Parker trained Elvis Prestley and Elvis even earned his black belt from Parker. Have you ever seen Elvis’s karate? You Tube it. You’ll be embarrassed for him.
      I hope you never have to defend yourself using your Kenpo techniques because you’ll get hurt or killed.

  8. Dear Mills,
    You are so full of crap- to be blunt. Why wouldn’t Ed fight Robert Libby? Ed was like 42 and Robert was 21. OK, Ed was older, but why did Lelani call for Ed? Why did Ed duck the Milo Savage fight? Why did Larry Hartsell call Ed a “Kenpo clown.” Why did Ed never train, compete, or teach? You say he had 7 street fights- you are a liar. And against 4 o 5 armed attackers- now who is the liar and fool Mills? If you know anything about fighting, you know that 1 armed attacker can be serious. But 4 to 5 with “knives and clubs”- man you can sling the BS. Ed never fought anybody as he would have dropped dead. Lelani begged Robert Libby not to “kill my husband.” She knew his heart was very bad- look at how he died. So you can quote the noble bard all you want- Ed was an out of shape wind bag, liar, thief, and a fraud. He never got a black belt from Chow, was promoted to 5th. degree by his cronies, and then promoted again to 10th. degree by cronyism.
    Just look at the videos he is in- he looks HORRIBLE!!!! We never knew he was that pathetic as he NEVER did anything. He came in, talked a little bit, took the money, and went home. And if you think Ed looks good in these videos you know less than nothing about martial arts or fighting, which is obviously the case as you state that Ed didn’t think it was a real fight unless against 4 to 5 armed attackers.
    The thing we are glad about is that hits on this site have sky-rocketed, and exposing Ed and Kenpo for the fraud that it is may save somebody from getting clobbered.
    So Mills, curl up with a good book after you put on your Spider Man PJs and fantasize as to how great Ed and Kenpo are- you are a fool and liar like your mentor.

    • You are right. Ed Parker was an obvious fraud. One need not have known him to be aware of that. His disgrace is in his videos. Look at what he did on that Lucy show – I thought all the negative things I heard about him were just sour grapes – until I saw that. But please do not knock true Kenpo. American Kenpo – Ed Parker’s hoax – and Chu’an Fa Chinese Kenpo are two very different things.

      As I understood it, Ed Parker broke off from an art – not Kenpo, but Kempo – after learning far too little to do what he eventually did. Creating a fabricated art with a stolen name, and declaring himself a Super Grand Master. Early on, Ed Parker wore a white gi, as Kempo Karateka do. He changed it to black and completed the theft from Chu’an Fa by taking the look as well. But he did not steal the art – he did not have the skill to mimic it.

    • Michael Brooks

      It took you 6 years of Kenpo training to realize it was a fraud? Larry Hartsell’s website: ‘His martial development includes high rankings in several recognized arts including a long-time and much-valued association with Kenpo Karate’s Ed Parker. “Bruce Lee showed me what was possible,” Larry remembers, “and Ed Parker gave me my fighting spirit.”’ http://www.jkdassoc.com/larry-hartsell-an-american-icon/

  9. As I read your post I actually laughed. I had this mental picture of a Chihuahua yapping at a Great Dane. You sir are a childish fool and I dismiss you without argument.

    To those who are serious researchers and are interested in historic fact rather than inane bluster, I refer you to Master of the arts Ted Sumner, now a Kenpo Tenth Dan. Ted, whom I am honored to call friend, Is a true Warrior. There is no infantile blather about whether or not his Kenpo was “real,” whether or not he could actually defend himself IF attacked. As a twenty-three year old Vietnam vet (He looked like he was only 17) he went under Deep Cover in the life and death world of narcotics trafficking. For him, Kenpo was not a game, a sport, or an art; it was Life and Death. Kenpo saved Ted Sumner’s life on numerous occasions and at that time he was only a third Dan. Ask Ted Sumner about Ed Parker. The yapping of these know-nothing puppies is, and should be dismissed as, the drunken mouthings of adolescents. But Ted Sumner is a blooded warrior. He was attacked, with intent to kill, by murderers, gang members and multiple armed attackers. His assessment you can take to the bank. He’s been there and his Kenpo is vouchsafed in blood. Ask him what he thinks of Ed Parker and what his opinion is of those who are now trying to tarnish his reputation. If you really care you can read Ted Sumner’s documented history in the book, “Deep Cover Cop.” Ted is now a white haired “greybeard;” but don’t make the mistake of assuming he no longer has the skill or the passion. That blunder could cost you the use of an arm, a leg; or your life. Yes, we all grow older. Just before his death Ed Parker had white hair and had put on weight. But he was the Master of the art of Kenpo. He was a true warrior. The pathetic clowns who try to besmirch his memory will never know what he knew because they only run their mouths… Ed Parker engaged his brain. Ask Ted Sumner what he thought of Ed Parker. He knows. As for you Ron Morgan, years ago I wrote this poem which was included in Ed Parker’s tribute to Elvis. It fits you perfectly:
    “The Jackals:”
    The muffled drums are silent now,
    but ere the dirge could fade;
    a louder cadence drowned them out,
    an ugly new parade.

    Artless hangers-on typed out
    a never ending stream,
    of fact-less books and manuscripts
    and each one had this theme:

    “You should not love the King now dead,
    he lived ignobly,
    glory for valiant deeds if ought,
    the praise belongs to me!”

    The jackals gather round the crypt,
    and sniff the fetid air
    for hints of gold and favors
    that live no longer there.

    With empty bellies and empty minds
    they rummage through the roans
    then snap their jaws and lift their legs
    and gnaw their master’s bones;

    then skulk away for fitful naps
    in reason’s darkened lair,
    to dream of gold and favors
    that live no longer there.

    Mills Crenshaw

  10. PS:

    Ed Parker didn’t “duck” the Savage fight. He was never challenged. It happened exactly as I stated. Remember, little Ronney, I was there, you certainly weren’t.

    “Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than open your mouth and remove all doubt.”

  11. Tom Bleecker
    4:28 PM (6 hours ago)

    to me
    It’s a complete mystery to me. Off hand, I can’t recall knowing anyone named Ron Morgan. Also, while I knew Bob Libby, this is the first I’ve heard of Bob challenging Ed Parker to a fight. It might be a good idea to contact Bob and ask him.
    Best
    —–Original Message—–
    From: Mills Crenshaw
    To: Tom Bleecker
    Sent: Tue, Mar 11, 2014 2:00 pm
    Subject: This Idiot claims…

    Tom,

    This idiot claims you as a witness to his crazy story. Do you have any first hand knowledge?

    Mills

    • From what I’ve been able to gather, the reason you may not have known about this incident is that Bob was known for being loud and clowning around. Most of his story doesn’t hold up unless you understood that. More than likely, he was holding a phone, but it wasn’t connected to anyone as he made his threats while horsing around. If you think hard about his story it doesn’t make sense, he says Mr. Parker shut his class down, and Bob challenged Mr. Parker to fight over the phone, but later said he didn’t because Mrs. Parker asked him not to. Nothing of this story can be verified, and it just doesn’t make sense that Mr. Parker would have threatened anyone, while making someone shut down a class yet back away from a fight after being threatened by Bob? Bob is just a jerk who wants some fame for his videos now. If this story were true, many, many people would have heard about it over the years.

  12. Tom, you are a liar. You were in the room with Gary Brandolino when Bob called Ed and chose him off. And it was Tom that dared Bob to do it. They then had a discussion as to how Bob would fight him. Bob said I’ll run him around for about 10 seconds- when he gasses out I’ll nail him. Just like all cults they are coated in lies and distortions.
    Just look at the basics- Ed never trained, dropped dead from a massive heart attack, and was warned by Terry Robinson that he would die.
    Gary Brandolino tells a story of Ed Parker showing up at Tom Bleecker’s wedding. He was on a cane from gout, could barely get around, and looked like death warmed over. Bob will respond soon. He has assured me that Tom Bleecker is lying. It was in 1973 in Tom Bleecker’s living room in his apartment in Westwood, and Gary Brandilino was also there. I have trained under Bob and he is for real. He has also assured me that one can tell that Mills is an idiot. Fighting 4 to 5 guys with knives and clubs and beating them all in 7 seconds- BULLSHIT. This from a man that never trained. This is even far-fetched for Kenpo bullshitters.
    Mills, I wish you younger to give you the beating you deserve.

  13. Hey Tom, this is Robert Libby speaking for himself- YOU ARE A FUCKING LIAR. I was in your apartment with Gary Brandolino You said that there was no way I would choose of Ed. I told you I didn’t know his home phone number. You said I have it and dialed it for me. I insulted Ed right in front of you and Gary and then chose him off for threatening to beat up my beginning students. I told Ed I would fight him anytime- anyplace. I also told Ed that he was a punk, a thief, and a bully. When I arrived home Lelani called me in tears and begged me not to fight Ed as he had a very bad heart and was near death. I promised her I would not do a sickly man any harm and left it there.
    So Tom, are you sickly, senile, or just playing politics like usual? FUCK YOU!!!!! You know what I am saying is the truth
    Also, American Kenpo currently has more 10th. degrees that the Japanese Judo Federation has had in its entire existence. Whose Johnson do you suck to get one? You give them out like popcorn at a movie.
    And as for you Mills- how’s your lawsuit? How’s that bankruptcy? I can see how much credibility you have in the business world- as much as you have in martial arts.

    • And what proof do we have that you say you are who you say you are? Where are your so called credentials other than ranom name drops? All i see is another keybkard warrior teying to buikd himself up by tearing others down. I wouldn’t be surprised to find you are another persona on this thread as well just sticking up for one another.

      • Ask Tom Bleecker. Call PFS of Ridgecrest, Calif. and ask who did most of the teaching from 1999 to 2001. Call No Way Martial Arts in Los Angeles and ask a PFS Full Instuctor named Duane Walden who he used to call Sifu! Ask him who taught the classes in Chico, Calif for 2 years. See if he respects my abilities.
        So now Michael Brooks you goddamn coward I think I have proven what my credentials are.
        Now reveal who you are bitch! But you will never will. You will just crawl back under your rock where you belong!
        So the Parker legacy? Bad schools with incompetent instructors that just keep continuing the bullshit! Ed Parker would not fight me because he was all talk and no action. He was a fake who knew how to take advantage of people. And my track record against Kenpo black belts is 3-0. All backed down and even from a friendly exchange of ideas! Compared to how we trained in the 1960s they wouldn’t be fit to carry our gym bags!

      • Also, I have 12 videos on YouTube. I am not hiding from anybody. You are new here so I will elucidate you. I challenged Kenpo. You do the grab and I will only resist and do no offensive strikes- I will just resist and defeat virtually the techniques as they do not work. And as I use no offense you must stick to the technique- nobody stepped forward.
        WOW! That’s confidence in your system, There are hundreds of Ed Parker Kenpo people who know me, and most probably do not like hearing this, but it is a failed system from a man who was lazy and knew nothing about martial arts. He made up stories to make an image and then marketed the image. He never trained, never competed, and rarely taught. In the 6 years I spent at the Santa Monica school he taught maybe two times. He always talked about doing something but never did!

  14. Gee,

    Don’t let my age stop you. I’m sure I can last for the two minutes it will take to prove YOU are the fraud!

  15. (Sorry, in my youth it would have been less than that; but age catches up with all of us as you will learn)

    Mills Crenshaw

  16. Jeff Speakman I know and have watched his success in spreading Kenpo throughout the world (an effort which Ed Parker started and would have honored Jeff in recognitions of his efforts); Al Tracy I know and respect for his spreading Kenpo and adding to the wealth of knowledge; Joe Lewis I knew and respected as a consummate warrior; Bruce Lee I met in Ed Parker’s Pasadena Home; Ted Sumner I know and helped write “Deep Cover Cop,” which chronicles his real life use of Kenpo in life and death combat with killers, thugs and convicts; Tom Bleecker I know and respect for all his accomplishments (though he doesn’t know you and calls into question your ability to tell the truth; Chuck Sullivan I know and respect, He was an officer in the IKKA from its beginning; Mike Stone I know and respect ever since we fought in the International in 1964; Bob White I know, a man who everyone of any intelligence respects; but who the hell is Ron Morgan? I’ve never heard of you. And based on your inane posts on this site, I not only don’t have any respect for you I consider you to be childish, churlish, cowardly and beneath contempt. But, then, that’s just one man’s opinion; I’m sure your mother liked you…when you were little. You did have a mother didn;t you?

  17. OK. Let’s say I know nothing. Here is a little assignment- I want you to produce 1 video of Ed Parker EVER doing anything that could be considered as “working out” or “training.” ED NEVER TRAINED!!
    Here is another true story- In about 1969 a Los Angeles TV station called KCOP 13 had a martial arts special. It was hosted by the late Nick Adams. He had a green in Kenpo. Many people were on the 1 hour show- the Urquidez brothers, Ed Parker, and others. So Ed did the “5 count”, or 5 knives. He did it one time and was gasping for air. A second time and he could barely talk, and the 3rd. time he was done. My brother, who was older, asked me id Ed was sick. I said “maybe he has the flu.” No, he was done. So in the prime of life Ed could barely do one technique- PATHETIC!!!!
    So Mills I’ll be looking for that video real soon!!!!
    Now many might say “Why is he saying this stuff?’ Simple- I actually care what happens to people that learn martial arts, and it sickens me to see crap pawned off as gold. There are about 10 Kenpo techniques that can work, but only if changed. The reasons for the changes are that Ed was a very flawed technician and knew little about fighting. This was because he never competed; never got his black belt from KS Chow; and never had a real fight.
    1 simple fix is that one should not block with the front hand, but rather the back.
    A martial artist should never train off of a step through reverse punch as nobody throws that punch.
    All techniques should be done in real time and with various counters thrown to build reflexes.
    Non-contact sparring should never be done as it destroys real fighting skills- there should always be at least light contact.
    Students should learn how to deal with lines of attack and not preset attacks and counters.
    Students should learn a ground game like judo or BJJ.
    Students should learn how deadly serious a knife can be, and not raised on crazy stories of ANYBODY beating 4 to 5 armed attackers- that is the time to run. A 357 magnum may not penetrate a bullet resistant vest, a combat bowie will!!!!
    Now Millls this is Robert Libby that has been writing, not my student. He is repeating stories I have told him. But they are true. I have told him to never speak for me again, and he has done this before.
    If Tom Bleecker says he has no knowledge of me choosing off Ed in his living room he is a liar. He even told people about it who asked me if I chose Ed off. He dialed the phone for me to Ed’s house. And yes, Lelani begged me not to trash Ed due to his bad heart. And yes, Terry Robinson told Ed he would die if he didn’t change his ways- looked at how Ed died. we were surprised at how long he lived.
    I checked you out, and you are a nut case. You are a man released from lawsuit due to filing bankruptcy. But the claimant’s claims were upheld and awarded about $39,000. You live in a whack job state, Utah, and follow a whack job religion, Mormonism. You have all the boxes checked for right-wing crack pot Also, you refer to “fighting” with Mike Stone- non-contact tournament fighting is not fighting- it is high-speed tag. It has no merit for so many reasons.
    Let me elucidate. My students asked me to fight in the Internationals. I really didn’t want to- this was like 1973. I was fighting a Norris black belt named Mike Bissel- he was in “Enter the Dragon”, the golf course scene where John Saxon beats up Darnell Garcia, Pat Johnson, and Mike Bissel. He was dating Kim Burbridge, Bob Burbridge;s sister. So who are the corners? Pat Johnson- head referee- Mike Bissel’s teacher. 3 Norris blacks at the corners, and a Tae Kwan Do black belt for the 4th. corner man. I was killing Bissel and couldn’t get a point. His girlfriend was yelling “you’ve got an animal, come on Mike.” So we went into sudden death- as I was driving Mike out of the ring they gave him a point for a bs weak reverse punch, despite my scoring round kick to the body and back knuckle to the face. My students were floored. I had a few choice words for Pat Johnson as I was exiting the area.
    Steve Sanders once fought Chuck Norris- we had a film of it. we put it into a hand winder that football teams used to analyze plays. You could move it back and forth and see exactly what happened. Steve slaughtered Norris- match Norris.
    I was fighting in the Four Seasons tournament as a green belt. I was headed for the finals. My last match was against a Lima Lama kid named Esquivet. The last shot was him throwing a spinning rear kick- I blocked it perfectly and hit him with a reverse punch- he got the point. It was awarded by his father. I believe his name was Saul Esquivel. Steve Sanders had been coaching me at the tournament and was disgusted, Several black belts were actually holding me down as I was going to knock out Saul Esquivel.
    Tournament karate had no rules for officiating. It is filled with stories of bad calls and biased officiating. So never bore me with tales of bravado from the tournament world. Both Steve Sanders and Joe Lewis have spoken about what crap tournaments are.
    But this is just like you- use a meaningless reference from a crap system with no validity- Mormonism, Kenpo, Ed Parker, tournament karate. Take your pick, they are all BS.
    No Mills I will not come in and pimp slap the white off of your teeth as you are a pathetic wind bag. I am 15 years younger and 80lbs heavier You mean nothing to me. My credentials are solid. The best step I ever took was to abandon Kenpo. I do respect a lot of the Kenpo people, although I feel they are misguided in their opinions of Ed and Kenpo. Don’t threaten people. You can’t back it up and never could.

    • Um, why does someone calling Mormonism a “whack job religion” get a free pass? I find it hard to believe that anyone who has truly internalized the spirit of the martial arts would be such a bigot.

    • How about pics of a black belt class of mr parker kicking above his waist to the head in the 90s . I admit up to green belt it felt choreography. But at brown I saw clearly

  18. Robert or Ron or Mickey Mouse, who knows who or what you are. It doesn’t matter, no one cares, because you prove each time you post you don’t tell the truth and have no facts. The only “lawsuit” or litigation involved a construction company in which I was an officer. The suit dragged on for five years; there was no bankruptcy, and no judgement. We won every single issue and the suit was dismissed with prejudice. It is a matter of record. But then FACTS don’t matter to a slanderer. Yes, Ed Parker grew old. You will too if you are allowed to live. Those of us who knew and trained with Parker in his prime know just how pathetic your attempts to defame him are. I suspect that you wrote all of the previous posts as they contain the same childish drivel. I’m through with you. You have exposed your ugly soul to all who have read the lies you have spued. The entire martial arts world will know you – congratulations- your fame is well earned. You will be known as a vicious, petty, lying slander, who will no longer be welcome among people of integrity.

  19. Wow! Robert Libby-I don’t know you and i don’t know where you live or anything about you. I’m a little shocked by the lack of civility that you display. If you don’t agree with someone it seems you go to great lengths to put down others, including someone who is no longer living. I’m not sure what art you study, but it can’t be any of the martial arts as these all teach the importance of respect and civility. I wouldn’t be too quick about casting Mills aside. I’m confident Mills could hold his own with anybody. And even if Kenpo doesn’t work(which I don’t believe)as you state, why the viciousness and attacks? So you all have a difference of opinion-what’s the big deal. Can’t you be happy just doing your thing while others do theirs? Nobody is infringing on that. I’m also glad that you know how to do a google search! Wow! That’s great! From the information you posted about Mills above, I also did some searching. All I can say is you’ve got to get current. Your citing things and events that are 12 years old. Can we do a little better than that? Interestingly enough, when I tried to find you, you’re nowhere to be found. Which is different than all the people you are attacking in this forum. Let’s do this. Why don’t you post a workout/sparring tournament that you’ve demonstrated some skill in and let others be the judge of how you do? What’s good for the goose is good for the gander. By the way-I find you’re “fixes” to the Kenpo system intriguing-starting with the first suggestion. “To block with the back hand instead of the front hand.” Really? You should see how that would work with someone like Tony Martinez, Sr., Paul Mills, Sam Ellis, or Tony Martinez, Jr. They would be over that front hand so fast you wouldn’t have any chance of surviving. But go ahead and try to block with that back hand. They would make mincemeat out of your frontal features very quickly. Why so nasty anyway?

  20. I’m amazed at the lack of respect shown in this thread by what appears to be one person posting as many. Robert/Bob, etc-I don’t know what art you study, but it couldn’t be the martial arts because the legitimate ones I know about all teach humility, respect, and civility. What’s the big deal anyway? Even if you believe kenpo to be unworthy of study, why can’t folks like Mills do what pleases them and you do likewise? It sounds like you always have to be right. And when something comes along that challenges your point of view, you attack everything about them-the style the study, their religion, their personal life, etc.

    I do have a suggestion. What’s good for the goose is good for the gander. Since your requesting “proof” that some video is produced showing Ed Parker working out, can we ask the same from you? Why don’t you produce a video of what your skills look like so that we can all see them and make a comparison. With all your expertise I’m certainly sure you can do that. You see, while you did a google search on Mills Crenshaw, I did my own research on not only him, but on you. First, some of the things you comment on are 12 years old. Can we get more current than that? Second, while I can find Mills all over the internet, I cannot find anything about you. Strange with all your knowledge, connections, prowess, etc. Third, you say your credentials are “solid.” Can you tell us your real name, where you studied, you line of black belt progression, or anything else about you that we can check up on? You see, it’s the year 2014 and it’s much harder to make things up now than it was in the 60’s.

    Last-I wouldn’t be so quick to cast Mills aside. I’m pretty confident that he could hold his own. I’m intrigued by some of your “fixes” within the Kenpo system, starting with your first suggestion. “..blocking with your back hand, not the front hand..” I’d love for you to try that one on someone like Paul Mills, Huk Plunas, Tony Martinez, Sr.(or Jr.), or Sam Ellis to name a few. These are the folks I know-of course all of them not worthy of any respect from your point of view, where this would meet with dire consequences. That technique done against Tony Martinez, Sr. would meet with brutal consequences. He’s be over that lead hand so fast he’d make mincemeat about your facial features. But you go ahead and be thinking about that back hand block. I’d love to see it.

    I’ll be looking for your video soon. You see, to me it doesn’t really matter. I do what I enjoy doing, and you enjoy(I think)doing what you do. Why can’t it be laid to rest with that? Why so nasty Robert/Bob/Ron/Vito, etc.? It does look like you’re trying to drive traffic to this website in the hopes of selling things? I don’t even mind that. What I do think is in poor taste is the attack on others, particularly one that is no longer living. Maybe we should be worried about you?

  21. Ah ha…now I know this is one person who is spewing all of this and then censoring the comments they don’t like to hear. That’s OK. We’ll get the word out what a hoax your website is. There’s other ways to get the word out other than you nixing all comments you don’t like. What a punk! You dream up these fake conversations and names to stir things up to drive people to your site to sell them something. I’ve had 2 posts that never made it after being “moderated.” What’s the matter? No video to show us of you and how great you are? It’s no wonder why nobody knows who you are because your a nobody. Big talker. And someone who says “pimp slap” isn’t 60. You’re some young punk who wont show up at a dojo when challenged. Solid credentials, huh? Tell us your real name and provide us with highlights of your wonderful martial arts skills to enlighten us. Then let us know who some of your students are. Oh, you don’t have any? You’d last 20 seconds in the ring with anybody decent.

  22. Sorry Snibb I am 62. DOB 2-4-52. Sorry for the “lack of humility” but martial art means “war art.” And I get pissed when people lie about me. But I do agree about the “moderator” part.
    No, Kenpo does not work. Now think- 1 man against 5 men with knives and clubs- Mils’ comment not mine. Does that even sound dimly credible to you? Watch Paul Vunak on “Knife philosophy” on Youtube. Knives are very deadly and leave massive damage. You do not block with the forearm, but rather pass the knife as you zone to stay away from the business end. This type of Hollywood BS does in fact get people killed, and that is my concern.
    I watched a Kenpo 4th. degree spend 20 minutes om how the inward block destroys the radial nerve in the forearm, and that a strong punch needs a strong block- COMPLETE CRAP. Watch a boxer block- they merely swipe jabs and crosses away. Inward blocks do not work in real time.
    Can some Kenpo guys fight” Hell yes- but they never use a Kenpo technique in a real fight. It breaks down into a sort of full-contact karate.
    My aim is simple- I do not want people making life changing decisions based on errant information. And virtually all of Ed’s teaching was crap and flawed. Take the “Kenpo challenge- try to do ANy Kenpo technique in real time- GOOD LUCK!!!!

    • You only show your ignorance. When you are an older more experienced man you will urge your grandkids to train in tkd mma boxing or self defence just to understand the reality of defending themselves.

    • Sorry, as a Kenpo practitioner myself, I really would hate for you to miss the chance to see an art that demonstrates the very core of what makes a martial arts technique effective. Before I studied Kenpo, I was an Uechi Ryu Shodan. But I never understood why the art did not work until I studied Kenpo.

      You and I both know that Ed Parker had nought but a con. His hoax was not true Kenpo – he stole the name as well. My guess is that he was a colored rank in Kempo – a poor one at that. He made up a system, stole the name from Chu’an Fa Chinese Kenpo and went on to fool the world. What he did was an absolute disgrace, and there may never be a way to reverse the damage he has caused. Who cares for the, “but-he’s-not-here-to-prove-himself” line. Anyone in the know can easily spot him as a fake. Let’s just be glad he is not here to continue to disgrace the martial arts.

  23. Mills- the lawsuit is in the Deseret News of Utah- but I did lie. The claimant was awarded 89,000 and may go to 200,000. It says in t ‘Radio talk show host Mills Crenshaw.” So are they lying also? Or is their another talk show host named Mills Crenshaw in Utah? So who is the liar?

  24. No Snibbs- I’m not selling anything- no books, DVDs, or t-shirts. I am just tired of there being so much ignorance in America.

  25. i have been in a few videos, but a long time ago. This is my real name. I ran the Ed Parker Santa Monica school for about 2 years in the 70s. I also did 90% of the teaching at PFS of Ridgecrest for about 2 1/2 years from 2001 to 2003 ( a Paul Vunak affiliate). So if somebody with Vunak’s credibility and his full instructor thinks I’m fir to teach I guess I know what I’m doing. I have trained in Kenpo, judo, Bjj, kick boxing- American and Muay Thai, boxing, weapons, Kali, Silat, escrima, panantukan and pananjakman. Now I just train a few people overseas and work out. I hike, swim and lift weights also.
    So as to credentials- What are Ed’s? Never got a black from Chow, promoted from 1st. to 5th. by his friends, and then 5th. to 10th. by the same friends.
    One of the effects of time is changing history. In the 60s we always knew Ed stole the book, his second one, from Jimmy Woo, But as always Ed had a story about some student hanging himself due to Jimmy’s errant teaching and a mystical form. Ed always had “stories” for his indiscretions
    I have no idea as to who Vito is. Ron Morgan is my student. I think I know who Bill Nadal is. I have no idea who Lumberjack Dave is or Monfongo. I knew of Mills Crenshaw but have never met him. I knew Tom Bleecker from the 60s to the 70s and have not seen him in about 40 years.
    As to respect- I give it to those that deserve it. Ed deserves little if any. He was critical in promoting martial arts, but his skills are non-existent, his feats the tales of fantasy, and his stabbing loyal people in the back legendary. He was a thief, liar, fraud, charlatan, and fool

  26. Dear Snibbs, Now I have an assignment for you also. I can find nothing with Mills Crenshaw on Youtube but his talk show. But I did see a video with ed Parker called Kenpo talk with Ed Parker. He refers to hinself as a “street fighter from Honolulu.” But he has no arrest record. I have one and so does Larry Hartsell. If you fight you can be arrested. But what so impressed me was HOW BAD ED WAS!!!!!!!! OH MY GOD!!!! He does a multiple man attack and his form is horrible- he looks like an idiot. And in it he is leaner and his hair is all black so he is about 35? Really look at this crap. It was so horribly set up and Ed’s basics are horrific. So what are you talking about? LOOK AT THE VIDEO! Every video I see Ed in he is either in slow motion or he looks like a weak blue belt. Anybody can look good in slow motion with the opponent cooperating. But even then he looks uncoordinated, off balance, and weak So this is the “Hawaiian bad ass?” I have never been more convinced as to what a fraud he truly was. I would REALLY like to thank all the Kenpo faithful for getting me o do research and totally realize what a charlatan Ed was.

    • Ok another self masogenst my style is best D. A. Are you a pro football or hockey athlete? No ! Not many of us are. So with your reasoning non of us should do it. Or we should only train with super bull or stanley cup coaches. Is it the athlete or the coach. So for your limp mind I suggest sound principles play a key role . Please understand we all will preceive and apply these differently. In 56 years ive never applied a class room technique. But without thought on several occasions I have when forced used parts and pieces . And I’m sure I looked off balance but that third person perspective didnt mean crap. Only the resoluts matter. Shut up keep training.

  27. To me it doesn’t really matter. I’m a man of no consequence and little in the way of wordly means. Right now I just try to stay healthy and out of hospitals as age and health has caught up with me. I do remember many years ago attending a martial arts clinic where said Mills and Ed Parker were both participating. I suspect it was recorded by someone but is not up on any youtube videos. I was much younger then(35+ years ago?) I was highly impressed with Ed Parkers skill. His speed, quickness, movements, and power were something to watch. Maybe I’m easily entertained. As far as him being a street brawler, who knows? He said he was so I believe it. But even if he wasn’t, it still doesn’t affect me. People make up things all the time and its getting worse today. I find all kinds of things on youtube where Ed is very skilled. I see some things were it’s a demonstration that look a little corny but that’s only because its slowed down to explain some of his interpretations. I find the same thing in many other forms of karate. By way of arrest records, is that something to brag about? You could have an arrest record and not know one stitch of martial arts. Who knows? And, by the way, I find no arrest warrant for either you or Larry Hartsell. I do find it strange that the people you say were in the room and knew about all these instances have never really heard of you and/or or they don’t remember the incident as you state. To me, the tone of this entire attack wasn’t called for. There are many people I don’t care for in this world but I still can have some civility towards them. Maybe not much for some of them, but at least a little.

  28. Actually tom Bleecker admits he new me. The main point is simple- telling people that you can beat 5 knife-wielding attackers is not only stupid, but highly dangerous and irresponsible. I had a student say to me “What would you do if 6 guys with Knives attacked you?” I said “I would die.” He couldn’t believe it. He thought I would win.
    My goal is always to improve my students- lying and making up idiotic tales of grandeur does not do that. And as I have always said making your students think and believe they can do the impossible can get them killed.
    As to my being arrested, it was not to brag, but merely to show that I have had a provable fight. My case was dismissed and the accusing parties went to prison for numerous charges- it was 12-29-1971 in Portland, Oregon. Larry was arrested in Los Angeles, CA in 1968 or 1969- his case was dismissed as he and his 2 friends did not start the fight. I went as a ride to help bail him out. A person cannot be bailed out by a 16 year-old.

  29. I just ran a Deseret News archive search … no such story. That’s a small matter. Your lack of knowledge makes you a danger to anyone who might be tempted to take what you post seriously. First, you misrepresent what others say. It’s an old trick called the “straw man argument.” You restate what other’s write in a ridiculous way; then you tear apart YOUR restatement (attacking the straw man you built) and try to convince the audience that you defeated the original argument. A sophomore debate technique. Here are the facts: I said Ed Parker considered a “serious fight,” to be four or more armed individuals. Armed with bottles, clubs, tire irons, knives etc. YOU extrapolated that to mean FIVE GUYS WITH KNIVES…RIDICULOUS!

    I had a specific instance in mind. You were making up hot air to make yourself look good. When Ed Parker was at BYU (1954 -1955) he was driving to Salt Lake from Prove with his wife Leilani. A car load of drunken
    sailors forced him off the road. They jumped out of their car and came at Ed with a variety of weapons (Bottles, tire iron, club – I don’t remember for certain if there was a knife I think so but Ed isn’t around to clarify). That fight lasted seven seconds. Ed took them as they came at him. He was worried that he had killed the first attacker who, after he had been struck fell backward and hit his head on the blacktop.

    But the thing that stood out in your self serving diatribe was this statement: ” You do not block with the forearm, but rather pass the knife as you zone to stay away from the business end. This type of Hollywood BS does in fact get people killed,”

    You clearly don’t understand kinfe theory AT ALL. Rule one: When facing a knife assume you’ve already been cut. Rule two: THE ELBOW CONTROLS THE BLADE. Rule three: DON’T BLOCK or GRAB – PARRY the weapon arm and CLOSE with the attacker to CONTROL HIS ELBOW! (For those of you who are serious about the subject, have a friend thrust with a rolled up newspaper as though it were a blade. Step forward outside the thrust in a neutral bow; your leading hand touches the attacker’s ELBOW, your trailing hand makes a circular parry at the hand or wrist to prevent the blade from cutting you. With a tiny bit of practice you will discover that one you touch the attacker’s elbow you are in control of the blade. By closing with the attacker and controlling his elbow you prevent him from slashing at you. If you “ZONE to stay away from the business end,” as one genius recommends you give the attacker multiple chances to cut you; and cut you he will.

    A little knowledge is a very dangerous thing.

    • Sorry, but the story of Ed and the five sailors is BS. Come on…he’s driving along and for some unknown reason, five sailors (US Navy?) force him off the row (car smashing?) and “come at him” armed with weapons…and Ed beats them all in seven seconds. I think you are confusing a 1970s kung fu movie with reality – or Ed was when telling this story. Needless to say, I can’t find any documentation this alleged fight ever happened.

    • Ed Parker tells the Utah fight story in his own words. A Karate Illustrated magazine interview, Sept. 1976. pg. 16 Somewhat edited for the sake of space. (but not by much)
      Magazine (KI): Since you’ve been in the martial arts, have you been involved in any fights?
      EP: Yes, nine times in my life. Never has my training failed me, and the longest any fight has lasted was nine seconds at the most. My most memorable one was when I was going to college in Utah. My wife, who was pregnant with my first child, was along that night. …Anyway, these four guys just pulled us off to the side of the road and started to get out of their car. They were going to work me over. I dropped two guys within six or seven seconds. I was more frightened that night than in any time of my life. When I hit the first guy, he hit the ground and his head sounded just like a watermelon when it landed. I thought I had taken his life and that’s why I was so scared. It really shook me up, because that guy didn’t move for five minutes.
      …On that particular night I discovered what mind over matter was. Everything that was happening, was happening in slow motion. It was like I was watching myself while I was fighting. I mean, while the guy was still punching I was thinking I should crack his ribs, No, that wouldn’t have an effect because if his ribs would break, then…uh, oh, there’s his buddy running in. This is what’s coming to my mind during the action, I’m not kidding.
      …I thought how he’s got a white T shirt on. If I hit him right across the nose and splatter blood all over his shirt, psychologically it will disturb this guy, and worked just like that. His partner came at me and just as he was about to shoot a left, he hesitated when he saw his buddy’s blood gushing. So I blocked his shot and hit him right in the back of the neck. It was funny because he had a cigarette in his mouth and the snap from the hit was so hard it made the cigarette fly. The other guys jumped in the back of the car and locked themselves in. Later, the guy who was lying unconscious started to twitch and his legs moved. Man was I happy.

      Then the next month’s issue featured Bill Ryusaki, a Hawaiian Kenpo stylist, and student of Ed Parker.
      On page 25 of the October 1976 issue of Karate Illustrated magazine, an interview with Ryusaki describes his first meeting with Ed Parker. He says “I actually saw him really take care of himself. He was literally piling these guys up…” So much for the claim that Ed Parker never fought.
      As to Ed Parker, not a Black Belt under Chow…
      In his book Infinite Insights, Vol 1,(1982) Ed Parker describes his training phase in Utah 1950’s,(pg.25-27), drafted for the Korean War, joins the Coast Guard for Hawaii (1951-54), and completes his training with William Chow, during his Coast Guard days, then returns to BYU, in late 1954. Indeed, the photo on top of pg. 26, captioned, “Ed Parker as a Black Belt with William Chow”.
      Ed Parker gives Chow the utmost respect. “I treasured the time I spent with him and the revelations I obtained from our conversations and workouts. As I look back, I cannot thank him enough for setting me on a path of logical and realistic thinking.” (pg. 24, Vol. 1)
      Ed Parker tried to convince Chow to move to the mainland, but as told on page 28, in 1959, Chow rejected the idea of moving to California, and gave Parker his ‘blessing’ to carry on without him.
      Why would Chow give Parker his blessing if Parker was still a brown belt? I think not. In fact, Ed Parker went to college precisely to bolster his own credentials with the public to gain trust and credibility as a teacher. Why would he not seek a basic instructor level credential as a Black Belt in the very field he was good at?

      Salute

  30. Since I seem to have a hard time getting anything approved on this site, I’ll keep things a little more generic. Robert-I’m with Snibb on this one. I’d like to see you in action with some techniques that show how you might do things. Any tournament clips? Self-defense techniques? How about a studio name that we can all see to verify what you’re saying? If you’ve got something better than Kenpo, why not all of us see it? I’d be interested in that.

    I’m not sure what an arrest record attests to. All that tells me is that you’ve had problems with the law-a bad thing. I know a few guys who have arrest records and they don’t know the first thing about martial arts. They might not even know how to fight. Having an arrest record doesn’t tell me anything about how good you are at whatever style you study or even if you know any martial art.

    All I can add is this: I do know Mills-I’ve trained with him locally, are recently. I think it would be a huge mistake to think that he couldn’t defend himself, or that the techniques he knows and teaches wouldn’t be fight-worthy on the street. He can generate an awful lot of speed, momentum, and power. I wouldn’t want to be on the opposite end of anything he throws. The same can be said for my instructor Tony Martinez, Sr. I think Tony is now 74. If Kenpo doesn’t work you should have seen what Tony did last night to a very talented hapkido martial artist who is 20+ years his younger.

  31. Hi guys, I have this site on automatic, don’t diapprove anything unless it is spam. You might hit some kind of wordpress filter (jetpack? Akismet?) but other than that, whatever you print gets put up. I hate censoring. Oh, and you might check your own computer or browser or whatever. That might slow down the comments. Al

  32. Mills= this is getting tiring, but I will post a video soon. As to the Deseret news, when you put “Mills Crenshaw” on Google you get three choices- Talk show, Kenpo, and lawsuit. You click on lawsuit and the Deseret article comes right up. It is about a pension fund and blatantly says that you were dismissed from the suit as you filed bankruptcy
    A golden rule of propaganda, lying, is make it a big lie. This is the basis of all religions. Brigham Young said that there are people living on the moon, they are of uniform size, dress like Quakers, and have been seen with telescopes.. He also stated that people live on the sun. He also stated that he has never been wrong not given false council- no ego there.
    The point here is make up a big lie and people believe it more readily. You refer to people that “trained” with Ed- he never trained. When I was at the Santa Monica school he always would set up classes, and then cancel them. He once said he was going to have a Saturday black belt class taught by him to standardize all the techniques and forms- that lasted about 1 day as he cancelled it the next day. Benny Urquidez, whose credentials are impeccable, was teaching at Santa Monica on Friday nights. He finally left as Ed kept cancelling training appointments. He promised Benny that he would teach him the entire Kenpo system. Benny’s comment- “He never showed me a damn thing.” Ed was notorious for being lazy, cancelling appointments, and making false promises.
    So here we have Benny leaving due to Ed’s lack of commitment, and Larry Hartsell, also a man of incredible talent, that called Ed a “Kenpo clown.”
    But as I previously stated, look at the videos- he is HORRIBLE. And the entire “Honolulu street fighter” myth was started by Ed.
    When I produce a video clip I will show how Ed knew nothing about fighting, basic principles of body mechanics, and how to make some of the techniques work. Funny how the Senior Grand Master knew so little. I will also show how many Kenpo techniques put you in a worse position than you started in by showing timing errors, bad mechanics, and just plain stupidity.. Yes, Kenpo works great if the opponent stands there and lets you beat him up. But in real life people do not do that.
    I guess that’s why he never received a black belt, was promoted to 5th. degree by his cronies, and then to 10th. by his pals.

  33. I hold Robert Libby beneath contempt, not for anything he has done, for I don’t know the man; but for the slander he has perpetrated against a GOOD and HONORABLE man, who was my instructor, my friend and my brother— Ed Parker.
    In pursuit of the truth, I researched Libby’s claim that there was a story linking me to a lawsuit in the Deseret News. I had never seen the story so when the slanderous claim was made I denied its existence. I was wrong. There was such a story. However, like everything else that Libby spouts that brief, thirteen year old story was false, misleading and inaccurate. I Know Curtis DeYoung, casually; but I have NEVER AT ANY TIME been part of, or associated with his company, American Pension Services, I have never been part of, associated with or taken so much as a penny from Orion Communications, Inc. the company named in the alleged lawsuit. That part of the thirteen year old “story” was totally in error. Nevertheless, Mr. Libby was correct, only to the extent that there was such an article.

    People like Mr. Libby identify themselves for all to see each time they open their mouths or write for public consumption. Strong’s Open Concordance says it best:
    STRONG’S CONCORDANCE:
    diabolos: slanderous, accusing falsely
    Original Word: ????????, ??
    Part of Speech: Adjective
    Transliteration: diabolos
    Phonetic Spelling: (dee-ab’-ol-os)
    Short Definition: slanderous, the Slanderer, the Devil

    His attack on me is fine, I’m still here to defend myself and set the record straight; but his attack on Ed Parker is cowardly, slimy, churlish and beneath contempt. He then magnifies his calumny by slandering “all religion.” In his ignorance he quotes fully discredited “anti-church” authors who made up straw man stories and then tore those stories down in an attempt to defame men of faith.
    So be it; Libby raised the specter of religion, that will be the test:

    • Matthew 7:20
    20: Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

    The fruits of Ed Parker’s Genius have spread throughout the world. Hundreds of thousands of high ranking Black Belts owe their skills to instructors, teaching on many of the continents of the globe, who got their training either from Ed Parker or one of his first or second generation instructors. Some have branched out into schools and systems of their own; but most, with the exception of the egocentric, pay respectful tribute, to the man who paved the way.

    WHAT GLORIOUS WONDERS HAVE YOU PRODUCED MR LIBBY?
    Ed Parker didn’t have to brag about his achievements; they exist in the real world. Others sing his praises. But from YOU, MR LIBBY, all I hear is a chorus of off key slander.

    SHOW US YOUR FRUITS so we may judge your worth.

  34. Mills, you are such a bore and journalistic hack. You think because you spew a little Shakespeare you are an intellectual giant. But as you, I believe were on his board to promote him from 1st. to 5th., and then 5th. to 10th., you have things to gain from deception and lose from the truth.
    It is so simple- you said The Deseret News had no such story- I can get it it 1 second. The other thing anybody can get is how bad Ed really was on Youtube. Go to Youtube and watch “Ed PArked Late LAte Show”, “Ed Parker, Mills Crenshaw, Jeff Speakman”, and Ed Parker Kenpo concepts in motion. He looks slow, uncoordinated, and foolish. Watch the 10 man wipe out and look at his kicking, and how some shill falls over from a kick a yellow belt would be ashamed of. Also watch Ed Parker Huk Planas and look at how ridiculous they look.
    The techniques I will be critiquing will be 5 swords (the 5 count), twin kimono, triggered salute, the “back breaker”, and one other for a rear shoulder grab. I will effectively show why the training method is so flawed, why these show that Ed knew nothing, and how to make some of them work. The holes in Kenpo are not pin holes, but rather chasms of stupidity and fraud- just like Ed’s supposed skills and street fights..

  35. One last thought- this link started about 3 years ago. It had like 80,000 hits. Now it has over 445,000. Frauds like Ed should be exposed. Students should learn valid concepts from good teachers. But unfortunately most karate and kung fu styles are crap that don’t work

  36. Now it’s been almost 4 months since you started to slam Ed Parker and also tell us you would put up a video. I haven’t seen one yet. When can we be enlightened? I’m looking to better my techniques and if the style you teach has some kind of advantage, I’d love to see it.

  37. I have a life outside of the Internet. I am currently very busy with my 18 year-old getting ready to go to university.
    As to slamming Ed Parker take a number. I am hardly alone in this. To give you a quick idea as to how to better your skills do not block like they do in Kenpo. If you are in a matched use the back hand to block the attackers front hand and the front hand to block the back hand- the opposite of Kenpo and most Karate systems. Never train off of a step through reverse punch. Always throw counters when the techniques are done, and never use a Kenpo knife defense technique.
    I have part of the video done, but not all of it. I want to really show how little Ed Parker knew, and be very precise as to why the techniques cannot be used in real time. I want to also show how techniques like twin kimono put you in jeopardy due to how stupid they are (it leaves you wide open for a head butt to the face).
    T o answer Mills, the “drunken sailor” story has so far happened in 4 states. There is also the time he and Chuck Norris took on 5 guys in the San Fernando Valley (a part of Los Angeles) and Ed took out 4 while Chuck struggled to take out 1- also bullshit.

  38. Also I believe I mentioned the video about 2 months ago. But as I stated my daughter going to university is a very big deal for us- she comes first in my time schedule.
    Also Mills- another HUGE fraud is the Bible. I only use it for sarcasm. And I am sure I know it better that you, therefore, I know what a sick document it is, so spare me the quotes.

  39. More straw man arguments based on fictitious stories, from a man who never met Ed Parker. The incident with the sailors happened on the highway between Provo and Salt lake City. I know both Chuck and Ed Parker and I have never heard that account from either man. Your understanding of what Parker taught is as fictitious as your straw man stories. Some of the techniques, taught in his name, have strayed from what he taught. But your description is laughable. Nearly as laughable as your childish attempts to attack the Scriptures. I no longer read your infantile Blog; but only respond to the email notifications. I suggest the handfull of readers who remain do the same

  40. Mills, desperate liars always say stupid things- I was the manager and instructor at the Santa Monica school for about 2 years. Hundreds of people know this. I was there when George Waite was there- then Larry Tatum took over when I left. You are a fool.

  41. I studied from one of James Wing Woo’s students in Berkeley, CA and at 14 my dad sent me to Hollywood to study from James Wing Woo. My short time with him influenced my life, he is a great teacher! His workouts were on stone floors waxed to a slippery finish then he added dancers wax or something like that. We wore rope sole shoes and did high spin kicks and a lot of horse stances, you had to have excellent balance and your legs turned to steel. I am over 50 and still squat in the mid 400-500 lb range….I attribute this to my horse stance training in his system. I went to Hollywood again recently but could not find his studio.

  42. Jimmy is a great guy. I remember how slick the floors were. I hear he is like 80 and still teaching. Ark Wong taught into his 80s also. I’m glad you liked it so much.

  43. Hey mr. Libby, I read only arguments with no sense from you and I agree it would be good some video clip from you.

    Have a nice day

  44. I think you need to talk to Olohe Solomon Kaihewalu.
    I believe the Parker’s path is through the family of
    William Kwai Sun Chow who happened to be married into the
    family. He was by marraige introduced to Kapu Kuia Lua .
    Now known as Lua.

    I believe Lua was not taught to Houlies before this time.
    It was also forbidden to teach anyone not of Hawaiian
    descent the art of the King. Kamameha to be precise.

    So, it is not as if Parker had no experience. He had been introduced
    to Lua, Kempo Kosho,Sil Lum Pai, and Danzan Ryu by the schools which
    happened to be at the same location in the Province.

    From these schools come the Kajukenbo, Danzan Ryu Jiu Jitsu, Lua, Lima Lama and schools
    from Chinese Gung Fu such as Sil Lum Pai. Represented by contemporaries of Shihan Edward “Bobby” Lowe, Bill Ryusaki, Tino Tuiolosega, and Olohe Solomon Kaihewalu.

    Being that Parker was a Polynesian Bradda, not only in the arts but as a descendant of Hawaii himself. A young lad in Hawaii as a Hawaiian it would be remiss to believe he was not exposed to these things, these schools prior to opening his first Dojo.

    If you look and piece together the movements alone. You will see all the influences you
    would have in the Hawaiian Islands at the time. You would see the structure of Okinawa Kempo,
    The influence of Jiu Jitsu from Parker’s Judo days. The influence of Kali from Emperado, the Bone Breaking of Kaihewalu Lua and Polynesian Lima Lama among others from this place and time.

    These are the influences, these men the “Old School” Family Members not in name but by blood that were their Families arts. Pieced together by Parker to become “American” Kenpo. Identifying them as Chinese, if and maybe only to call attention to the roots and it’s ancient attachments.

    My only words of dismay were the fact that Parker did not give enough credit to his own Hawaiian forms of the arts of Kapu Lua and Flowering Hands of Wisdom of Tino Tuilosega and Solomon Kaihewalu. Who for him to identify the arts before his death would have been forbidden.

    The reason for so many followers of the arts are “Do they work?” I think the times the older arts were used by many in places like Tarawa, and Sai Pan by many of the original teachers of the original systems used to defend this country.

    So why would anyone try to defame the man who actually brought the original mass influence of Asian arts to the American Mainland, including introduction of Jun Fan (Bruce Lee) to the world. When in reality, they should be thanking him.

    It is also a demeaning of those who shared their works not only with him but with others prior to him even coming to the mainland. So, I don’t believe in speaking ill of others. The reality is to take it and if it is good use it. If not, discard it.

  45. Well stated ERIC,

    It’s a pleasure to read a common sense statement from someone who knows history. Salute, Sr.

  46. What a swell history lesson- but proves nothing about fighting. Yes, Rd Introduced Bruce and was instrumental in starting his career. But what dies that have to do with real fighting? I agree Ed got very popular, and loathed at the same time. I worked for him for 2 years. He had so many bad traits- lazy, inconsiderate, egotistical, thief, and liar. So why should I respect him?
    Who do I respect in martial ars? Paul Vunak, Tom Cruse, Dan Inosanto, Benny Urquidez, all MMA fighters, the Gracies, Hayward Nishioka, Gene LeBell, Bruce Lee, etc… These were fighters and innovators. The proof is all over Youtube. Look at videos of Ed in his prime and examine how bad he was- pathetic is a better word. Anybody who is that uncoordinated, lacking in power, form and focus, and gases out in under a minute is not a martial artist. Kenpo people can brag about Parker all they want- the proof is in the videos.

  47. It is very easy to attack a dead man.

    It is much more difficult to explain History to those who refuse to listen.

    I am not a “Parker acolyte” I do know the History by talking to the people who were there.
    I read, then investigate and ask the people who were there. Like Chow’s family.

    It is easier to deride someone you don’t know, especially when he is dead. It is much more difficult to prove those things.

    I didn’t know Parker himself, I have seen his work.
    His ideals are in use today and yes even in MMA.
    Don’t mistake laziness for a low kick, or trap.

    Remember MMA as an ideal started with the people in Palama.
    Karate, Judo, Kempo, Boxing = KAJUKENBO 1925 – 1981.
    It was also influenced by Sil Lum Pai of China, and Harimau of the Filipinos.
    And Lua from Hawaii. Where balance meant everything.

    I find it interesting you name Labelle, Nishioka a student of Nobuo Nishamori a friend of mine.
    Benny Urquidez a student of Bill Ryusaki. As “real warriors” when it is Chinese Kenpo that Ryusaki gave to Urquidez.

    Yet you leave out men like Tino Tuilosega who fought in WWII using Lima Lama, real battle not for
    Glory and Fame, but Life and Death, with knives, guns, clubs in the sands of Tarawa against trained foe. For him and his country.

    “You see it is not who is right, but who is left.”

  48. You are still dancing around the issue. If you test the reflexes of a person you would be amazed at how close they are in a basic test. I once saw them check the reflexes for Jeremy Clarkson of Top Gear against Michael Schumacher- very close. The point to this is analysis, not a history lesson. But to straighten out one fact I chose Ed off when he was alive- he would not fight me, so so much for the “when they are dead BS.”
    The basic techniques used by the EPAK crew are physically impossible to do in real time. When somebody is standing there like a pole it is easy to look great. For example, when people do the “back breaker” the “dummy” lays on your knee and folds his arms over his chest while you pound on him- gee, that will happen in a real fight!!! When they do “Clutching Feathers” they gingerly lay there hand on the dummy’s head to simulate a hair grab- that is not how a hair grab is done in a fight. And when you step back to “trap” the hand on the head that is the dumbest thing you could do- you will get punched in the face.
    I know Tino and have moved with him. His strength was his boxing, guile and size- too bad the smoking killed him.
    And Kenpo is used in MMA? Are you nuts? One guy sent me all these video clips saying it was Kenpo they were using- pure BS. Chuck Liddel comes from a Kenpo system- when has he ever used it in MMA?
    Also, not only did I know Ed, I worked for him for 2 years after training at his school for 6 years. I new Bill Ryusaki (famous for the first personal injury lawsuit as his student used what Bill taught him and hurt a kid at his high school). And when did Benny ever use a Kenpo technique in the ring, or in a fight? He used boxing with kicking.
    Put Bobby Lowe into Google and look at videos of a man with the last name Greco doing full contact- he was quite good, but it was boxing with kicking. No one has ever seen a Kenpo technique used in real time as it cannot be done. So I know and have moved with virtually everybody in your history lesson. I guess that is first hand experience as opposed to from a book. I did a demo with Ed, Tino, and some big friend of Tino’s that had a glass eye- this was for the Screen Actor’s Guild in like 1967. So when did you move with any of these people? And I was respected enough as a 15 year old kid to be asked to do a demo for important people. Granted I was just a punching bag for Tino, but Ed said “I know you can take a shot.” And Tino really smacked me a couple of times. So once again, who of these people have you actually trained with or done anything with?
    And as to lazy- Ed truly set the mark. Always cancelling appointments, never training, always late with belt certificates, never training, etc…
    Ask Nishamori about Bill Asimow- he trained me when I was a kid. He was my father’s CPA and got me started. He was I believe a 7th degree in judo, but lymphatic cancer ate him up at a fairly early age (I think he was like 60), a real tragedy.
    So all the people you name I know and have worked with, I chose Ed off when he was alive and he refused, and he went off on me over the lies a green belt and threatened to, as he stated it, “beat up Bob’s beginning students.” What a tough guy!!! And these are all facts. He never told the owner of the health club that he would beat me up, but rather “beginning students.
    And Tom Bleecker, who said he had no knowledge of me choosing Ed off asked me how I was going to fight Ed. So you believe who you want. As to the video It is in process. I reviewed it and felt a lot of the angles were a little tricky to see and there were close ups that were too close and longer shits that were too long. But I will show the fallacies of Kenpo and Ed’s complete lack of knowledge.
    What I equate this to is the “Wizard of Oz.” Everybody is so afraid to look behind the curtain. And like all cult leaders there is money to made or lost. Many people that praise Ed use his system and rake in the cash. Or they refuse to really analyze what he taught.
    Also two more facts- NOBODY denies that Ed was promoted to 5th. and 10th. by his students. So would somebody of such a shoddy and despicable charade perhaps be involved in other questionable practices? And Ed dropped dead of a massive heart attack in the Honolulu airport at 59 years of age- fairly young by today’s standards. So please tell me where I am wrong?

  49. Can’t Nishimori is dead.
    Like Bobby Lowe is also dead. Of which you would or should have known.

    But it might serve one better to seek to unify peace than to foment strife, is that not why one spends all the time training?
    For me, if I held animosity I would have to say I have missed the target of what all the training was really for.

    I don’t care really where when or how. The reality is I have seen and used many of the techniques in real life like fist of jade, spear of jade, leap of death. They have worked, not in the ring where everyone is bound by those rules. But in the street.

    But reality is Kyokushin was founded on 18 hands Lohan Kenpo, that was Oyama’s original form. Many of the techniques are similar. History is important because if you know from where you come, you are less likely to get lost along the path you travel.

    “The reason we train in the martial arts is to build a strong spirit. Karate means “Empty hands” but that is not one word. Empty means your mind. No anger, No hate,No Ego” Hand is Peace, with No Fist.”

    -Soke Takayoshi Nagamine

    Saying this You seem to be angry?

  50. No it doesn’t. And I am doing like 5 techniques with the ways to make them work as Ed didn’t know that much..

  51. I figured they were dead. But you never know. Jimmy W. Woo is still teaching and he is like 90.
    Another reason we train is to learn reality and to analyze. We also need to speak out when we see blatant stupidity that can get people hurt. We also need to improve concepts and techniques to make them more realistic. We also need to expose fraudulent ideas and practitioners. I feel that almost any martial art is great as a form of exercise and for health. But when I see ideas that are so ridiculous that they get people hurt I will speak out. And just as I speak out against religious cults as they are dangerous I will speak out against false martial arts concepts. And the whole idea of “they don’t use it MMA because because it is too deadly” is a crock of crap. And please. no more history lessons. I know all about Oyama and Lowe. Instead why don’t you do an analysis of why this works. The reason is it doesn’t work. 90% of all martial arts do not work. The grappling arts are the most effective and always have been.
    On closing go to “Joe Rogan with Bas Ruten” on fake martial arts. A really great analysis on the supposed efficacy of most karate and kung fu systems.

  52. Actually Tino fought in the Korean war at the Battle of Inchon. And I was wrong as I thought he died. What happened was he had a heart attack as he was a smoker. I do know that Arnold Urquidez had a lot of respect for Tino.

  53. The reality is all Parker did was string techniques together. Prime example is “thundering hammers”
    It is what is called a “Hammer fist” Used regularly in MMA events. I think anyone who has been in a Kara Te class has thrown a side kick, wheel kick, chicken kick, round kick, punch thus it is called Kenpo Fist Law.

    “Crossed Swords” rear naked choke

    “A complicated move is just a string of simpler moves stuck together.” -Parker

  54. I study under someone who is part of the Parker lineage. For fear of being admonished, I’ll stay quiet on who exactly I’m under. If it helps, my instructor is friends with Frank Trejo and Mr. Trejo visited our location several years ago. Enough said.

    I’m not a linguistics expert, but I’m quite well versed in writing, and as a Kenpo practitioner, observation. I’ve read through the rantings of Ron Morgan, Robert Libby, vito and survy. In my opinion, these people are all the same author posting under different aliases. All the posts tend to misspell similar words and follow consistent grammatical formatting. The tone of the writing is almost identical. The judicious use of CAPITAL LETTERS is consistent throughout these posts. Exclamation points are very similar too. Whenever one of these posters is super jacked up, I usually see 6 exclamations points. Normally jacked up gets 4 exclamation points. Sort of jacked is 1 or 2. Almost every time.

    The smoking gun, however, is the simple hyphen, or dash.

    You see Ron Morgan/Robert Libby/Vito/Survy – you consistently use the same hyphen/dash format in your posts. It always follows this pattern: “word”- “next word”. So for everyone reading, have a look. Word – Dash – Space – Next Word. Ron/Robert/Vito/Survy is, in my opinion, one in the same person.

    As for Mills, we’ve not met, but I believe you are authentic. My instructor is in his 60’s and gives up probably 60 or 70 lbs to me. I am in my early 40’s, and just about ready to test for 3rd brown. He’d clean my clock. :)

    Writing is a window into one’s soul. :)

    • There are two hyphens used. You should maybe read them again. And almost no exclamation points- what are you talking about?And boxers and MMA people all use the blocking method I described.
      Snibbs, you obviously know damn little.
      Also, where are the denials and defenses to Ed’s mystical belt promotions? Have to figure anybody that will do that is obviously a fraud, or take part in it.
      The anger comes from all the fraud in so many areas that are so prevalent in America.

  55. Bigot? Joseph Smith taught that black people were descended from demons and cursed by God. They were never allowed in until in the 1980s when black incomes rose in America. Joseph Smith was convicted of “dozing schemes” (a felony). He was so hated that they finally dragged him out of his cell and assassinated him.
    Read their beliefs before you call me a bigot. Mormonism is a whack job relation created by a thief, bigot and mad man.

  56. You’re right. I know nothing. And I don’t need to be right because it doesn’t matter to me as I have no skin in the game. I’m waiting for the further light and knowledge that you promised to send.

    I was going to ask you if you have more than 1 or 2 good friends? Make that any friends. I’d be surprised if you had even one. And if you do is he as miserable as you are?

    Like a previous poster asked:

    Where’s the video clowny?

    Lots of talk but a no-show from what appears to be a big-talker. Lets see some video. Simple as that.

  57. Gee Snibbs, how easily you get rattled. For one who doesn’t care you sure seem concerned. To make a good video takes about 3 hours per technique, so 15 to 16 hours. I do not so things in a half assed fashion. Their is the Kenpo technique, why it is wrong, explaining realistic fighting concepts, and then the improved version. To do an 18 minute American sitcom takes 1 week for 18 minutes – do the math.
    So let’s throw it back at you- where is one decent Ed Parker video? Nobody can produce one of those. I can lead you to many bad ones.
    In America, where I no longer live 1/5 adults is illiterate, 20% of high school seniors are illiterate, 37% cannot find America on a map. Why? People like you- the wafflers who have no commitment to anything. You flip-flop like a pancake. FUCK YOU.
    And I am quite happy with plenty of friends.

    • Wow.
      A criminal record
      Uncontrolled temper
      Uncontrolled language
      Bitter, angry old man

      Yeah, you sound like you must be a real winner with lots of friends. I only wish I could have seen Ed in his prime and you in yours. I feel confident that you’d be on the mat in less than 30 seconds. Big talker. Attacking a deceased individual and then anybody else who happens to come in your way. Big, bravo, and macho.

      You’ve been promising all of us your knowledge filled videos. Fifteen to 16 hours to film 3 techniques? I guess you’re not as bright as you think you are. You can do it in about 2 minutes and everyone knows that. There’s these things called iPads-I’ll tell you a little bit about them sometime.

      Oh, that’s right. You don’t have one because you can’t buy one because you’re unemployable.

      Enough of the bragging. Let’s see the proof tough guy. We’re all sitting on pins and needles in anticipation of that knowledge you promised to send.

      Why did you leave the U.S.? No friends? I didn’t think so.

      And don’t bother with the different aliases that you go by-Ron, Liddy, survy, etc. You were busted by an earlier poster.

      Now go and spew some more of that anger that’s visible for everyone to see.

      There you go, I knew you wouldn’t let us down. Now go have some dinner by yourself because you have no friends, family, or life.

  58. Truth is what it is. If I hold the truth and present it to you and you do not accept it, I do not get angry. I just move on.

    If the truth is presented and your base, (much like in the arts) is weak you are easily uprooted and become frustrated, and angry. You are not very well rooted in either your beliefs nor in your argument.

    Reality is Benny Urquidez is and was a practitioner of Hawaiian Chinese Kenpo under Bill Ryusaki. Chuck Liddel who was trained in the Hawaiian System under Hackelman and Jiu Jitsu with John Lewis and others.

    To say they never used Kenpo Techniques in MMA is funny, since MMA came originally from Kajukenbo. Kajukenbo was derived from Hawaiian Chinese Kenpo, I think they even say “We were the first Mixed Martial Art.”

    Chinese Kenpo is a combination of Lua, Malama, Kempo Okinawa, Jiu Jitsu. So they do not use one technique. They use many techniques from the system. I.E.

    Kajukenbo’s main man was Emperado (Kali) who was a training partner of Bill Ryusaki,Ralph Castro who all trained under William Chow. Chow taught Parker. Chow combined Okazaki Sensei’s Dan Zan Ryu with Mitose’s Kenpo.
    Chow was introduced to Lima Lama, Lua by Samoan Tino Tuiolosega and Hawaiian Solomon Kaihewalu.
    These became the foundation of AMERICAN HAWAIIAN CHINESE KENPO.

  59. Keep it going……..fun……personally I have no pony in this. I met Mr Parker once at a seminar. He seemed impressive to me and I was glad I wasnt a dummie of his because he beat the hell out of those guys lol. I studied Tracy’s for a couple of years with Mr. Mitchell first who I can attest to being able to handle his self and several others in that class that could. Mr. Mitchell then wen to study with Parker.
    IMHO Kenpo techniques teach quick reaction to in the face situations. When fighting with a referee starting across the ring it would be hard to pull off but that’s not what they were designed to do just teach quick responses in close.
    Most systems if practiced live with adjustments can be devastating. I many years ago did a non contact style of TKD which often gets shit for good reason. However several of us who had studied Judo, adapted sparring to full contact with throws, and Ne Waza. I also got to the point of breaking concrete with a knuckle punch from about 8″ to replicate a quick strike that could disable anyone. After about two years we couldn’t find anyone to play with except some Kykoshin fighters, a style which I love btw.
    I was talking with Rorian Gracie in 89 and thought that Bjj was Ne Waza on roids, showed the first gracie in action tape to my father a judo instructor and it added greatly to our play. My son currently is a bjj purple belt submission machine and if my body wasn’t so messed up at 58 I would do it for the love of it.
    Finally beware of challangeing old men lol. You might get me, or many much tougher, say Google Jim Harrison for one.
    But please continue I love history and the back and forth even if it gets a little disrespectful.
    Thank you

  60. Almost every art of Jiu Jitsu ,Kenpo, Yawara in Japan are descendants of Tenshin Katori Shinto Ryu.
    Which is basically Kenpo Jiu Jitsu. Judo, was brought to the United States by Maeda Sensei, a student of Jigoro Cano. Who was asked by Theodore Roosevelt to teach his techniques of Jiu Jistu.

    Maeda was pinned by a 300 lb Offensive Guard from the United States Naval Academy. He was so embarrassed by the incident he left the country and moved to Brazil. He was met at the boat by one of the Gracie’s who introduced him to Helio. Maeda had no money or place to stay so in exchange he taught Cano Judo to the Gracies in exchange.

    At this time Judo focused on the joint manipulation and different Waza. He taught these to the Gracies. Thus Gracie or Brazilian Jiu Jitsu was born. While Kano began focusing on the throws and this became the focus of Japanese Ju Jitsu or Judo.

    Okazaki Sensei began teaching forms of Jiu Jitsu in Hawaii. He learned Kapu Lua from Hawaiians like Kaihewalu, Kali from bands of Philipinos, and Chinese Kung Fu Sil Lum Pai from Wo Chung .

    Mitose was teaching a form of Kenpo/ Kempo and Chow and Bobby Lowe Arther Keawe among others were cross training in Sil Lum Pai, Flowering Hand (Lua) of Hawaii. These FIRST MIXED MARTIAL ARTISTS in America. Bobby Lowe went on to be the highest ranking Kyokushin Shihan in the World, and the first Kyokushin Dojo outside of Japan. Chow taught many others including Bill Ryusaki who was Benny Urquidez’s instructor.

    Yes then there was Ed K. Parker, friend of Elvis and founder of the first International Asian Martial Arts Tournament. Where Jun Fan otherwise known by his friends as Bruce Lee. Was introduced to the World.
    As for Parker’s fighting abilities, as I get older as many do the body does not function the same. Especially if you have heart issues. Tired lethargy are part of it, shortness of breath another.
    So to judge based upon that is assuming a lot.

    Parker died of a Heart Attack at a fairly young age. So maybe just maybe, just maybe he was focusing on the mental aspects and depending on his younger acolytes to produce the movements.
    But what can not be taken away was the profound effect he had on Martial Arts in the Western world.

    So, truth is, WHAT IS ALL THE FIGHTING ABOUT? We have all gained benefit from Parker in some way.

  61. FYI MY friend was the training partner of Kimura and Donn F Draeger at the Kodokan in Japan.

  62. I find it very hard to take anything posted as being credible when the author who wrote this piece does not have his or her name posted to the article. Who wrote this??

  63. Mills you are a criminal, here is proof:
    Name: Mills L Crenshaw
    DOB: 08/19/1936
    Offense: FAIL TO MAKE/RENDER/SIGN/VERIFY A TAX RE
    Category: Unknown
    Case Number: 499821
    Record Date: 02/12/2002

  64. LOL…What nonsense! Yes there was a tax dispute and a case filed. Corrected returns filed, all back taxes and penalties paid and that file is so old it is about to be expunged. That record will be cleared; but you will still have to live with the sick and demented person you are. Best of luck with that.

  65. Steve,

    You are absolutely correct. Over the last sixty years, from time to time, I would hear fictional stories from blowhards claiming to have backed Ed down or they “knew someone” who had done so. My answer was always the same:

    “Really? When was their funeral? They’re not dead? What hospital are they in? Not hospitalized? Then it didn’t happen.”

    It’s very much like the idiots who demonstrate their ignorance of the mechanics of the martial arts by saying, “Oh Kenpo’s no good, those guys are always slapping themselves.” They condemn themselves as second class fighters because they have never learned the concepts that Ed Parker developed involving speed patterns, anchoring secondary blocks and the fact that bouncing off your own body can double the speed of a block or strike. They are also ignorant of the fact STOPPING a pattern of motion, block or strike, consumes both time and energy not lost when the pattern is redirected by bouncing off one’s own body. That’s alright. Let them continue in their ignorance. Feel sorry for them. They were not trained by a true master of the art.

    Cordially,
    Mills

  66. Ed/Bill/Robert:

    Where’s the video clown?

  67. Sorry, but you are a fool. Steve, Ed probably never got more than a brown.
    FACT-Mills was on the “committee” that promoted Ed from 1st. black to 5th. black
    FACT- Ed was.again promoted from 5th. to 10th. by his same cronies
    FACT- Ed never competed
    FACT- Ed virtually never taught
    FACT- Ed was told he would drop dead by fitness trainer Terry Robinson in the 70s as he was in such deplorable physical condition
    FACT- Ed dropped dead from a massive heart attack due to his NEVER training and horrible health habits
    FACT- Ed was chosen off by at least 2 people and would not fighr
    Ed spread the stories of all his “legendary” street fights.
    All the above are FACTS and provable. Hey Mills- deny that you promoted Ed with all your cronies!!! And you all could reap economic benefits from this charade.

  68. Robert,
    Whoa man take a breath. No dispute on your facts all true. Although I’ve been studying Kenpo for 30 years (I’m 55) I’ve never had the opportunity to meet Mr Parker. However I’ve trained and studied with many of his first generation students and others as I took advantage of the available seminars in my areas when ever possible.
    You see, yes he was a brown belt under Chow. Mr. Parker had all the Kenpo he needed from Chow. His art as it currently stands is so much more than the rudimentary movements Chow taught.
    As for his rank, well, who else would you want promoting him? A committee of peers makes sense and is the norm in many organizations absent a central leader. Ed Parker was the master of Ed Parker Kenpo.
    Ed Parker was a big Hawiaan who loved to eat. Had he gone and had a physical perhaps a bypass would have saved his life. We are all responsible for our own health.
    As for Ed Parker competing, I can’t say. He was a teacher and there were plenty of his students who did compete: Tom Kelly, Lee Wedlake, Frank Trejo, Manny Rejes, and many more all over the country have competed under the Ed Parker banner. Recall the Internationals?
    As a guy who is fond of facts, look out at the Kenpo landscape across the country and the many different off shoot systems that trace their origins back to Ed Parker. People like the Tracy’s and Nic Cerio Kenpo. Jeff Speakman, Skip Hancock, Sean Kelley in Florida, Bob White, Paul Dye, Joe Palanzo, Dennis Nackard (these are the instructors I can name) all practice a version and as closely aligned with Ed Parker as they can make it and as they understood it. If they want to add to EPAK they’re free to do so.
    All these people have trained countless more students who in turn may have started their own studios and the flame is carried on. All because of Ed Parker.
    We are all flawed, even Ed Parker as you have succinctly pointed out, but Ed Parker was also a truly great man and a martial artist who’s legacy continues on.
    Have a safe and enjoyable holiday week.
    Steve Shaffer

  69. I’ll answer this easily- Parker virtually never taught and at his seminars all he did was talk. If you want a real seminar go to one of Paul Vunak’s or Libre Fighting. They will run you into the ground.
    The Internationals are a non-contact event and meaningless- the officiating was often horrible and mant times rings were stacked with one competitors school. Read Joe Lewis opinions about non-contact tournaments- I helped run the Internationals several times.
    As to his promotions- he could have gone back, apologized, and been promoted. But you forget a key factor- Parker was LAZY! And he was also dishonest. He constantly made promises he never kept, late with promotion certificates, made commitments to his instructors and then broke them, lied about people (Paul Dalton in particular), and neither trained nor taught.
    Do not use Palanzo as a reference- he is a clown. I watched his videos and he is a complete zero. Like fake religions people became brainwashed.
    My goal is simple- I don’t want somebody getting a real life situation and getting hurt or killed because he put his faith in bullshit. And Kenpo knife techniques are REALLY dangerous. Paul Vunak talks about irresponsible teaching in regard to the knife- he is right.
    Also watch the Joe Rogan show with Bas Ruten. They are talking about “fake martial arts.” They discuss how many MA people say “I could poke you in the eyes.” Ruten’s comment to them is “OK, and I am better at that than you are.” And when you ground fight you learn about protecting your eyes.
    Now as to “more than rudimentary movements”- THEY ARE ALL WRONG!!!!!!!! The blocking is backwards, the “minor hits” are ridiculous, and many techniques put you in a worse position that you started- Clutching Feathers, wide open to be punched in the face, Twin Kimono wide open to be head butted in the face, Lone Kimono, wide open to be punched or kicked, Five Swords you are open for a back hand cross on the block and open for a hook on the heel palm, etc…
    You sound like a nice reasonable guy. But I have been doing this all my life- I don’t want people hurt by stupidity. So do something that I suggest to many- go in the ring- you will get clobbered. Resist the techniques and do not cooperate- the techniques fall apart instantly. For example, have somebody do Twin Kimono on you- just do not straighten your arms- they become baffled. You play like you practice.
    As in Clutching Feathers the aggressor GENTLY lays his hand on the person’s scalp and stands there while you pound him. Look at a hockey fight- grab the jersey hit the face. In the street- GRAB THE HAIR HARD, PUNCH TO HEAD. So why in the name of God would you step back and PERFECTLY frame your face with one hand on the head and one to the armpit? Can you not see how vulnerable that leaves you?
    In closing, I was training some Kenpo guys. They were green to brown belt level. I started resisting the techniques, and they were flabbergasted. They did not IMMEDIATELY go to a new technique as they say you will- they froze. At that time Kenpo had the 128 technique system. We went through all 128- most left Kenpo as they determined, by actual resistance and my insights, that of the 128 MAYBE 10 could work on their own, and some by the changes I showed them So a max of 20 out of 128. That’s a piss poor showing.
    You have a nice holiday too. Mine will be great as our 19 year-old is coming home from university for Xmas to New Year’s DAy.

  70. Quite the discussion. Allow me to break down some of the information you dispute. Let’s say on Twin Kimono you don’t extend your arms. You immediately switch to hooking wings modified with a knee to the groin as opposed to a kick due to range. The raking hammer fist then is converted to an elbow. If you know the techs you should see that this adaptation will work. As for your argument of clutching feathers leaving yourself open for a punch in the face, possibly if you had been trained incorrectly. Your pinning hand is acting in dual purpose. It’s meant to be used as a close cover while pinning. The thought behind the tech is to pull your attacker off balance while you strike the nerve in the armpit. You are correct when you say the techs won’t work. But that is not what they are about. These are puzzle pieces. If you truly understand the system then you realize that adaptation is the key to using the movements not merely trying to accomplish 5 swords by the numbers. By submitting a green through brown belt to an attack that isn’t ideal is like pushing a 3 year old down and telling him that learning to walk is ineffective. Most of the information in the system is still being ingrained and usually the idea of having to switch techs in mid stream doesn’t come along till black belt is achieved. The fighting principles are sound learning to adapt is a level of training 90 percent of martial artist unfortunately never reach. The adaptation was Parker’s goal for his students. Remember he said he wanted to teach you to be a mechanic of motion so that one day you would become an engineer of motion. Adaptation. Which if you have ever been in a street fight you would know that is the only way to win…,As for the history of Mr. Parker I can only say I have read and heard many stories but I can neither confirm nor deny these stories. It is not of my concern it neither helps nor hinders how I train. Remember Bruce Lee? Great physical shape, died younger than Parker. And where is Lee’s sparing videos? But that doesn’t seem to bother you? I only know people of good character that trained with Mr. Parker that stand up for his character. For me that will have to do. As for your tech video I would actually love to see it, I am regularly examining the techs to see where the weakness is to make myself a better martial artist. This keeps me out of the ideal phase since I know for a fact that a fight never goes as a script would play out. If you ever make the vid please share we all might be riding the same track.
    As for the character grievance you have, it will have to just haunt you until you find your own peace with it. Parker is dead and dead men cannot defend themselves. Those who are loyal to him will remain loyal and those who are not will not be.

    Merry Thanksgiving!!!

    • So hw did a provable liar like Mills set the record straight? I did choose Ed off and he hid behind Lelanis dress

    • My grievance with Ed does not haunt ne at all. What haunts me is people being lied to and being at risk by Ed’s stupidity and lack of knowledge. My grievance is 40 years old and why I am now speaking out is Ed’s techniques are all bullshit.

  71. Nice ideas, but not factual. All the alternate techniques are just as flawed. For example you use the back knuckle abdomen strike in Twin Kimono- USELESS!!! Watch two guys on the line in a football game- that is how people really push and grab. Your techniques will fall apart when attempted. But don’t believe me- just resist and watch the techniques fall apart. And I mean RESIST- like in a real fight. Do not gently lay your hands on the guys chest and stand there while you destroy him with his blessing.
    Like 30 years ago we did a charity demo for an injured guy. All the Kenpo people there asked “why don’t you use Kenpo techniques in the demo?” They knew we had studied Kenpo. The response was simple- “we have actually hit each other and resisted them and they do not work.” They were shocked.
    To digress as to how deep the BS goes- Think of Mills comment that Ed Parker was Jumped by 5 sailors and beat 5 guys armed with knives and clubs in 5 seconds- REALLY!!!!
    That is the type of idiocy I am talking about. So let’s break it down:
    1. 5 sailors- how would he know they were sailors? If on leave they almost never wear uniforms and I believe Utah is short on naval bases.
    2. 5 guys with knives- Paul Vunak is known for street fights. He is also a knife expert. I have been at his seminars where he discusses knives- 1 guy is a nightmare, 2 guys almost impossible, 3 you’re dead. Please do not even attempt to compare Parker to Vunak, and that is on so many levels.
    3. 7 seconds for the fight- who timed it? That comment is absurd.
    As long as people keep spouting tales of false bravado their students are at risk.
    As to the techniques and shifting to another one, who cares? So you transfer from one bad technique to another bad technique. I find it mystifying that people do not look at say clutching feathers and start laughing. And in a real street fight you do not have time to switch- FIGHT’S ON.
    Have you ever had a real street fight? The mats are not the street. As Bruce Lee was saying before he died- “Wake up.” Mast MA students are in a cult like coma. How do people follow Chosun Ninja or Freddie Lee? And I was there- I though Ed was a God. I just knew all his stuff worked, until I got into the ring and after I saw a Kenpo guy get owned in a real fight in Portland, OR.
    Thanks for the holidays wishes, and man I MISS Turkey Day (my favorite holiday bar none). I haven’t lived in America for a long time. So ahve a great Xmas and a happy New Year.

  72. I chose him off when he was alive. He had his wife call me to let me know about his heart condition. Coward? What started this was him calling a health club I was teaching at and him telling the owner he would trash my students- now me. So who s the coward?

  73. Your comment in regard to my kids makes no sense at all. And I feel TKD is more absurd than Kenpo. I would teach my kid or grand kids JKD, BJJ, boxing, and some weapons. My 6 year-old grandson is just starting in judo.

  74. There are several videos of Bruce Lee sparring- and full-contact with gear against Dan Inosanto. I believe you made reference to the fact that if Twin Kimono does not work you go to Hooking Wings? Also a very weak to useless technique. You see in Kenpo you are taught that I will do A, and that will make you do B- BS. You never know what a person will do when hit. I was teaching a PFS class in Ridgecrest, CA. A guy I was ground fighting with spun with a elbow and busted my nose all over my face. I was bleeding profusely- like a faucet, I didn’t even know I was hit or bleeding until people asked me to stop. This A to B to C to D idea is absurd. There are far too many variables,.

  75. Life is too short to argue over what will never be settled. Everyone believes his this is the best or that is the best, but all systems are derived from one pond. Daruma Buddha Boddihatsiva Brahman priest. Shorin Ryu equals Shaolin equals, Qui Na, equals, Kung Fu, Kempo Okinawa equals Japanese Kara Te.
    Silat is derived from Hokkein Gung Fu, and was influenced by South Malay peoples, who had there own fighting methods, Silat Seni Gayong, which influenced Kali Phillipines, Kenpo was derived from Kung Fu Fukien, but each culture had some of it’s own methodology. Kento became Kempo, Chi Na became 5 Schools of Kito Ryu ( Chen Gempai) and Jiu Jitsu which was taken to Brazil by Maeda who taught the Gracies and became Brazilian Style.
    All that has happened is in the United States the systems have been reassembled and called by systems of each choice. San Soo is Americanized (Since Woo was an American from Oakland), Jeet Kune Do is American (Jun Fan San Francisco), Kenpo is American (Mitose/ Gunso).
    They were brought reassembled influenced by the teachers (Most Americans born here) using their Ancestral exposures to teach their forms of combat, but with an ideally American flair.
    They Parker, Okazaki, Kaihewalu, Lee Jun Fan, Han, De Thours, and more. All traded ideals, and realized that to truly understand it all you must “Discard the classical mess.” which means the 3 years of standing in horse stance to start, and foment cultural enthno centric Tongish style ideals.
    So instead of fighting this or that, rather say hey James Wing Woo was a big influence on E.P. who in turn opened the United States to the Bruce Lee June Fan and the Asian World of Martial Arts to the World.

  76. Even Boxing was derived from French Savate, which is believed to come from South East Asia. When the British lost a fight between them and the French so the Duke of Queensbury set his rules enforced in England. So they would no longer lose.

  77. It is a simple answer to this A to B to C to D is elementary.
    A.B.O.U.T. spells a word
    but you might go from A.T. or Z to C but the training has to start somewhere.
    E>P explained first write letters, then spell words, the define and write the dictionary
    But one must first learn letters.
    He called it the Alphabet of motion.
    If one were a true master one would understand that this form and function is the key to every art form.
    Including San Soo.

  78. Mr. Crenshaw:
    I “stumbled” onto the site and read your response to my previous posting on Ed Parker.
    Since the new year is just hours away, and I don’t want any “old baggage” in 2015 I felt compelled to response.
    First, I am not an ass.
    Second, what I posted came from reliable sources, some who were there as part of Millo Savages corner.
    Milo had nothing but respect for the Martial Arts, but he and some of his people felt he was set up.
    Other posters have asked, now before we continue ANSWER…why didn’t Master Parker take the fight?
    Well, lets see.
    Chances are that it would have been a stand up slug fest which based on real fight experience and conditioning Milo may have won.
    And for Gene, according to you to say “I don’t care if he wears brass knuckles” :-)
    I didn’t post to disrespect Parker, just thought the topic needed to be addressed.
    As for street fights.
    I’ve worked in biker bars, hip hop night clubs, and discos like Valentinos.
    I know what works and what doesn’t on the street.
    I’ll put up my street MA experiences against ANYBODY because I’ve lived through it.
    Very few, if any MA Master regardless of style would have an easy go against 2, let alone 4 or 5

  79. Furthermore, why is a 77 year old man chellenging people?
    Look, I understand how you feel about Ed Parker, but grow up!
    You wanna know guys from that era that were real and had effective MA fighting skills?
    Karriem Allah
    Aaron Banks
    John Kuhl
    Frank Ryan
    Jim Arvanitis
    Oh, a real Kenpoist who could fight Steve Sanders.
    List too long to go on.
    Now, show me some love and respect.
    As your first New Year’s resolution an apology to Monfongo for all the not so nice things U posted are in order

  80. Monfongo,

    I don’t read this site any longer. I do get notifications of posts like yours so I am responding. FIRST, I don’t have to “get reports from someone in one of the fighter’s corners. I WAS THERE! So were some of my students at the time, so don’t blow second hand smoke to perpetuate myths. There are enough eyewitnesses still above ground to verify what I wrote. THE MATCH OCCURRED EXACTLY AS I STATED IT.

    As to why a 77 year old would extend a challenge, (it is now actually 78) I’ll admit it is out of character, that is true; but my friend, brother and instructor was slandered on these pages by a cowardly know nothing pretending to be a great warrior but proving out of his own words that he knew nothing of the origins of the art he claimed to have taught. The “Commercial” art taught in Haole supported schools only bear a passing similarity to the original art Ed Parker Sr. taught. There are only a handful of us left that lived through the training that gave birth to the Parkerism, “To hear is to disbelieve, to see is to doubt; but to FEEL is to be convinced. Before the rise of the commercial studio, Ed Parker did a lot of “convincing.”

    I really wanted to end this year on a conciliatory note; however, you betrayed your profound ignorance once again by referencing (if I understood you correctly) MMA practitioners as the ultimate warriors. You clearly don’t understand what ED PARKER TAUGHT. I have great respect for mixed martial artists. They are well trained, extraordinarly fit athletes. They compete in one of the most rugged sports in the world. BUT IT IS STILL A SPORT! There are rules! What Parker taught before the requirement of pleasing American sensibilities became a factor, was LIFE AND DEATH, THE QUICK AND THE DEAD. If an attacker rushes you for a takedown and you sidestep, rip his eyes out with a claw hand and sever the nerves at the base of his skull with a hand sword, the refs would most likely frown a little. And if one of those agile athletes did get you down and went for a submission hold and you, to save you life, tore his throat out with your teeth; or if the MMA expert applied a leg strangle and you used your teeth to open his femoral artery, you might face disqualification. The same as you might for slamming the heel of both hands on both temples before driving the nasal bone into his brain. “But that’s not “FAIR” you might bleat. And in mixed martial arts or a “fair fight,” you’d be right. It is against the rules. In what Ed Parker taught there are NO RULES!

    Case in point: Just a few weeks ago 74 year old Tony Martinez (One of my first Black Belts who now runs his own studio) was peacefully eating breakfast at a local cafe. He was thinking about the day ahead and was staring off into space. A huge Tongan (Is there any other Kind?) took offense, He thought Tony was staring at him. Tony stands maybe 5’4”, grey hair, a little guy. The Tongan grabbed Tony by the shirt front and yelled, “Who you staring at?

    Still seated, Tony twisted the attacker’s hand with his left, swept his leading leg and as the attacker’s face smashed into the table with his right hand Tony hit him at the base of his skull with a hammer fist. Blood and scrambles eggs flew everywhere.The fight was over in between two and three seconds. It’s that reaction to the unforeseen that Parker taught; not a stylized combat sport.

    By the way, the police came and were going haul both men to the slammer when the waitress spoke up and said, ” the little guy didn’t do anything, the big guy just attacked him.”

    Don’t ever make the mistake of thinking little old grey haired men are easy pickings. There are still a significant number of us greybeards around who were trained in the original Kenpo. Life and Death; the Quick and the Dead. It may not be beautiful by modern standards; but history proves that what Ed Parrker taught is lethal.

  81. Hopefully, this will be my last post.
    I come from the “old school” cloth of street Martial Arts.
    While I have trained in MMA and handled myself pretty well in both “stand up” and ground against ranked fighters who are much younger(yup…I’m 64)street effective training is what I do.
    Like I also pointed out to several well known Brazilian “ground” specialists, 90% of their submission techniques can be countered with biting.
    Now, back to the subject at hand.
    So far you have insulted me on this forum by calling me as ass and second hand smoke blower AKA as a “blowhard”.
    You sound like a JO!
    Furthermore, I will stick to my opinion that if Parker fought Milo instead of La Bell, Parker would have had his clocked cleaned.
    Oh, by the way that would have happened in a street fight as well.
    I am not interested in reading about your lawsuits or “verbal diarrhea” with other posters here.
    But I give Robert Libby my “thumbs up” for having the “cohones” to speak up and I find his version of things VERY credible.
    Unless you are in stellar shape and have the mental fortitude to back up your childish bravado cease the bad mouthing and “chest thumbing”, you are not as “bad a dude” as you think.
    Lastly, I KNOW there are plenty of senior Martial Artists that are proficient enough to handle most self defense situations.
    I have never and would never underestimate a gray haired, grandfatherly “type”.
    With that, go sit in your rocking chair and watch some All in the family reruns :–)

  82. Dear Monfongo,
    I would first like to apologize for being sucked into some bad behavior, but I get really pissed when people infer that I am a liar. But I agree with what you have said. You mentioned biting. I , like you, also use eye gouging and finger breaking. Own a man’s thumb and you own him. I also am very concerned about people shelling out good money to learn useless martial arts from teachers that have never fought, and that is street or full contact. I urge anybody out there to watch the Joe Rogan Show with Bas Ruten on “fake martial arts.” Very fact based and funny.
    AND A HAPPY NEW TEAR TO ALL

  83. Yawn.
    Farewell,
    Monfongo, or Robert or which ever pseudonym you choose. Your opinion of me is meaningless. I’ve been called worse. Have a nice life…if you can find one.
    Cordially,
    Mills Crenshaw
    Proud Friend of Ed Parker, who was, and is, a Master of the Arts, Innovator, Creator of Martial Arts Knowledge, Teacher Par Excellence, Fierce Warrior, Fast Friend, speaker of truth, respecter of others and a devoted follower of Christ.

  84. Dear Mr. Libby:
    Thank you for acknowledging my posts.
    I believe EVERYTHING you have said and although we have never met, feel confident that you have the experience, expertise, and skills to back up ALL your claims.
    Martial Artists like you and I, who come from the same cloth and somewhat similar backgrounds and beliefs can sense that unique brotherhood.
    Like you, I also believe in the importance of good, solid boxing skills.
    Case in point, I not only had Milo Savage as my trainer, I had other well known former fighters turned trainers work with me as I went through the tough ranking tests overseen by my late, great, but non commercial Shihan.
    Keep in touch, and all the best always.
    I am here if and when you need me.
    Now let me set our buddy Mills straight one last time.

    • Dear Monfongo,
      Thanks for the support. What so much of this reminds me of is religion. You can prove something to them a million times and they still cling to stupid ideas. I am sure that you, like me, are appalled by all the McDojos and people that have never been tested in any way claiming to be masters. My goal is to hopefully stop some poor guy frommaking a really bad decision due to bwd teaching. As I told my students many times “sometimes you run.”
      Hope you had a great New Years!

  85. Mills,
    For the record, I am NOT Robert Libby.
    I am Dan “Monfongo” Santini.
    It seems like MY last post mellowed you out a bit, and that’s a good thing.
    My opinion should be respected, as should I.
    Then, regardless of our differences that respect can be mutual.
    For way too long, decades to be exact many Martial Arts “legends” have been living off of “hype”.
    I ran into one of my older uncles this morning.
    He’s going to be 80 in March :–(
    Then, I thought of you Mills :—-(
    And ya know, I felt kind of bad :-(
    Understand, that your take or version on Martial Arts history is not the be all, end all.
    People you may have never heard of pride themselves on their honesty, credibility, and dedication to the Martial Arts just as much, if not more so than the legends and pioneers.
    It’s been quite interesting Mills.
    Take care.

  86. As I said, Mr. Santini,

    Have a good life. I was a little amused by your final comments… the importance of boxing, etc. Tony Martinez Sr., The little grey haired 74 year old guy who took out the Tongan bully in a couple of seconds… Tony was a Golden Gloves champion when he first came into my studio in Salt Lake City. He didn’t think what Ed Parker taught (and I taught) would work either…until he got on the matt. Inch per inch and pound per pound I’d still put 74 year old Tony Martinez up against anyone, not in Kenpo, 25 years his Junior…and many Kenpoists, for that matter. But then, Tony mastered what Ed Parker taught. Oh, yes, he also worked as a bouncer, years ago. He was all action, not mouth.

    P.S. It seems to me I heard, somewhere, that Ed Parker had a little boxing background as well. Oh, well…

    Cordially,

    mc

  87. Mills,
    Glad to hear Mr. Martinez was also a GG champ.
    I made it to the finals of the NY GG Open Class.
    And with his bouncer background, well sounds like he and I have some things in common.
    My life is going and will be aok.
    Live in Florida, my better half is 20 years my junior and she loves me.
    Not a whole lot of money, but I’m comfortable.
    And working with VIPS and some of South Beaches celebrity community doing security suit and tie.
    Can’t complain.
    Adios amigo.

  88. During my research on Kenpo I was guided to this site and became interested enough to read the comments and on going debate on Kenpo and most important Edmund Parker.
    Understandably, his students and followers are going to be upset with the general overview on Mr. Parker.
    But, it’s true.
    Mr. Parker was overweight and out of shape.
    While he could move extremely fast for a big man and was more than capable of DEFENDING himself, his poor condition and lack of training would be very DETRIMENTAL to a face off face against even an untrained opponent who was strong and physically fit.
    Mr. Parker isn’t the only recognized name or Master to fall into this catagory either.
    While it may be disrespectful to bring up these issues many years after his passing, my question is would it have made any difference if he were alive to hear it?
    Mr. Parker would have been in a compromising situation.
    Faced with the possibility of having to defend his name and honor in such horrible physical condition.
    Kenpo is a beautiful art, but it’s real effectiveness is miniscule.
    I knew Edmund very well.
    And I feel more than qualified to comment on this matter.
    Edmund K. Parker.
    A pioneer and legend who deserves the utmost respect for his accomplishments, but sadly not his physical condition or training dedication.

  89. Lou Angel, Bob White, and countless other masters of the art; and eventually YOU, Wes, will suffer the ravages of time and encroaching old age. Does that make their contributions of no value? Does that justify younger punks denigrating his accomplishments in order to build up their own reputations, so they suppose?

    If you are of that mind set I pity you. To you Michael Angelo was a has-been painter, Charles Dickens was a reprobate scribbler and the only things of value are yet to be discovered. Virtually every Martial Arts Instructor worthy of the name stands and builds on Ed Parker’s creative Genius. Have they moved on? Of course. That is precisely what Ed taught. He gave his students both the tools and the insight to create. He didn’t create robots his goal was to create “thinking warriors.”

    I trained under him in his prime. There has never been a more fierce, or deadly warrior. Faults? Of course,
    his most grievous fault was that he listened to the council of his enemies and ignored the council of his friends. Now that he is gone, we hear much from those who pretended to know him but only had the courage to speak against him once he was gone. You remember him with white hair and significantly overweight; I remember him as an athletic combatant with a black mane, set off with a genetic forelock, shock of white hair that was the signature of his youth.

    Your memories are of the ravages of age; my memories are of the creative fires of youth.

    • So Mills refers to the ravages of time- Ed was like 42 when I chose him off. I am 63 and still train and teach. Jimmy Woo who is like 90, and who Ed stole his second book from still teaches.
      I have never denigrated Ed to build up my own reputation- I have a good one and do not need that Hawaiian fraud to bolsterme up.
      His 2 references I believe are to tournament fighters, not street fighters.
      All of Mills’ references to great thinkers like Michelangelo and Dickens are merely smoke screens to cover his bullshit.
      He states that EVERY MARTAIL ARTIST WORTHY OF HIS NAME STANDS AND BUILDS ON HIS NAME. REALLY? Benny Urquidez said “he never showed me a damn thing.” Larry Hartsell called him”a Kenpo clownl.” The Gracie brothers have probably never heard of him.
      He says that people never did yhese things when he was alive- he was breathing when I chose him off- then he behind Lelani’s skirt.
      Mills calls him a warrior. Who did he fight? Not me or anybody else.
      Mills claims his fault was believing enemies. His fault was surrounding himself with suck ups and burning his true friends in favor of ass kissers.
      Mills says he was a fierce warrior- he would not fight me.
      Mills is a provable liar.
      In February I will have a video up- I have a promose from a friend to help me do it. I will show
      1. Why tneydo not work
      2. How to fix them
      3. And why some are beyond repair
      4. Why do to these techniques Ed knew nothing abot fighting, counters, body mechanics, or blocking.
      A good video is about 2 hours per video, despite the claims of those tnat never made one.
      Many of yne ideas will be quite basic. People like Monfongo will understand exactly what I am talking about and showing. Many brainwashed followers will simply keep following the same old ways like anesthetized cattle.
      Here is a list of Kenpo people that can fight:
      Larry Hartsell
      Dan Inosanto
      Scott Loring (a true freak of nature)
      Steve Sanders
      Vic Leroux
      Carl Schalio
      George Quinones
      “Big” John Henderson
      Bob Eisele
      Tom Howard
      Albert Cornejo
      Paul Edward Dalton
      Stromin’ Norman Pattiz
      Russ Feinman
      Chuck Epperson
      Bruce Epperson
      I apologize to any that I have left out. As teenager Kenpo saved my life, but by people like Scott Loring, Paul Dalton, Russ Feinman, Norm Pattiz, Albert Cornejo, and Larry Hartsell. I will be eternally grateful. Ed was merely a visitor to a once great school.
      After I post the videos please feel free to ask questions on other techniques. Please the name, and if I do not know it by name p,ease post a video. Unlike Ed I can analyze it and tell you if it works or not.
      To get this out of the way I am old, I ahve white hair, I am fat, bit I can still bang and walk around tneb,ock without gasping for airl

    • Also, I will show the article in the Deseret News that Mille says does not exist. This is merely to show that he is not to be believed.
      And please, if you have a valid question please ask.
      Also, if you have never been hurt, been bleeding, knocked out, or banged up you are not Learning a valid martial art. The Filipinos say “IT TAKES A LITTLE BLOOD AND SALT,” Ane if you are not willing to be banged up take up golf or tennis.

  90. I understand from the war stories of Frank Trejo, that Ed Parker (as any self respecting Hawaiian would be); loved to eat.
    As for his fighting abilities I refer readers to Lee Wedlake or Skip Hancock to research Master Parker’s skills. He visited their schools attended their sponsored seminars and was highly respected.
    Another source would be Mike Pick. All of the above instructors listed credit Mr. Parker with their skills.
    Instead of throwing grenades at Kenpo, go train with them for two years and decide if Kenpo sucks or not. My feeling is that the problem lies with the grey matter between your ears.
    As with any skill set, it’s not the body of knowledge that’s the problem, it’s the practitioner.
    Jeff Speakman recognized that in the early 90s. And cautioned the attendees to be worthy of the rank around their waist.

    Salute!

    • That’s really sweet Steve-how many fights haveyou had? All you are saying is that charlatan A said what charlatan B said- and the daisy chain of lies grows and grows.

    • Please go dandjurdjevic.blogspot He has videos of Ed and he looks horrible, and is 31 years old, so do not use the age argument. His basics were atrocious. No wonder he had to get his cronies to promote him-he had no skills. The person presenting it also has some good insights.

  91. I want to add one more thiught. I am basically from Los Angeles. I usually ride very fast motorcycles like Kawasaki ZX-9Rs or ZX-11s. So abig problem was bike thefts by organized gangs. We were sitting around one day discussing this. So as I teach martial arts some asked for my opinion. My advice was call the police. These are people that may have either numbers or weapons. And in LA if you go after them and shoot them in your garage you could be in serious trouble, and a lawyer could be far more expensive than the bike, and we all have insurance-now to the main point.
    A vey attractive young woman was there, and she rode a nice bike. So she says “I would put on my tobak and go out there and kick their asses.” She was 105 lbs wet. So I started laughing and made a comment about her maybe getting raped. So she got really andry w7th me and feot I had insulted her, her art, and her “master.” So I said “you’re really serious!” She was enraged and stormed off. This is what I mean by bad ideas getting people killed.

  92. Mr. Crenshaw,
    What compelled you to chastise me?
    My commentary about Edmund were done with respect.
    You actually made my blood boil.
    Let me give you a legitimate reason to “rip me a new one”.
    Edmund K. Parker was an “index writer” of Kenpo techniques.
    And the hundreds of his American Kenpo requirements were there for money.
    In his “youth” his silky black “mane” could not compensate for his lack of training, fitness, or
    effectiveness.
    How would Edmund in his prime faired against Joe Lewis, John Natividad, Ed Daniels, even Counte Dante?
    Look, I get it!
    You are standing up for your instructor and friend, but your coming off sounding more like he was the love of your life.
    I meant no disrespect to Edmund but your chastising me pushed my buttons.
    I’ll say it loud and clear.
    Master Edmund K. Parker.
    Excelled at writing made up techniques on index cards, promoted a nice tag tournament called the Internationals, loved to “grub”, was overweight, and coukd throw for 15-30 seconds before gasping for air.
    However, his name and size earned him more respect than his actual abilities.
    No bs, just the truth.
    After all, the truth only bends one way.

  93. Let me add my 2 cents by posting in poetry fashion.
    American Kenpo is effective and great, like it’s creator so let me clear the slate.
    Ed Parker was an honorable man, a true Martial Arts Master my feuding friends.
    Father time makes us all old and gray, and some gain some inches so what I say.
    Ed Parker may have been heavy but his abilities sure were not lame.
    Slander and defame, it’s a crying shame for those in the know can tell all you doubters Ed Parkers skill set was not a game.
    Let’s give him respect and honor the man.
    His positive legacy will live on forever in this great land.

    • To answer that, and from somebody that knew him and worked for him, your little poem is WRONG!!!! As Mr. Feinstein points out his techiques fighting efficacy were “miniscule”, and from videos one can see his skills were non-existent. I do not feel that a man who stole a book from a fine man like Jimmy W. Woo deserves respect, nor do I feel that a man who threatens my beginners deserves respect. To “slander” means to lie, and many of us have not lied. Have you ever even met the man?
      Let me add one more point as to how silly MA can get. When Ed would do one of his little “bursts” his hair would shake or vibrate. So some Kenpoists came up with a whole “scientific concept” about this called “vibrational transfer.” REALLY!!! Just more crap and pseudoscience.
      Also, my friend and I will start filming on February 15th.I will post the videos to Youtube. They will be done in a series. Is there a time limit to Youtube? Each one should be 15 to 20 minutes long.
      I will do “the Five Count” first as it is a Kenpo mainstay, but as practiced absurd; then how to fix it and with a much better ending.
      Then the side headlock technique, but I do not know the Kenpo name (Monfongo, I do believe you will enjoy my method for getting out). And ask why you do it the way you do it in short form 3 when one of the main weaknesses was agreed upon like 35 years ago, but never changed.
      After that Twin Kimono, a truly disadtrous technique, but I will show alternate methods for a front double lapel grab.
      The “back breaker- it starts off brilliantly and then goes to shit, but I will show better options and its weaknesses.
      Thundering Hammers- has so much potential if done correctly, but as done ridiculous
      on so many levels.
      I will also try to get in Clutching Feathers and Triggered Salute. Clutching Feathers is NUTS and non-fixable, triggered Salute starts great and then goes to shit.
      Duribg the videos I will show some basic ideas on how to survive a real fight by not injuring yourself as when you punch a guy in the head and break your hand- a real fight ender for you. If you have requests please send them to the Youtube site.

  94. I’d like to add my input to the drivel that’s been posted here but I can’t seem to get anything posted.

  95. Hey it works! If you post a famous name you’ll pop right up. I’m wondering who really runs this blog? I think it might be our good friend Bobby Liddy-the clown as we all know him. Wow.

  96. Mr. Mills,
    Your input would be very helpful. You have the background to correct this person called Mr. Libby. Apparently, everything we thought we know about Mr. Parker is wrong. He couldn’t kick, can’t punch, can’t hold his hands properly, threatened beginners, lied and cheated Mr. Woo, backed down from a challenge, hosted a fake karate tournament called the ‘Internationals’, taught bogus techniques that don’t work, insults any long time students of his (this includes you) by calling them cronies. But rest assured he is going to post improvements to kenpo such as Clutching Feathers, Thundering Hammers, Back Breaker, and others on You Tube sometime in February. We can’t wait to see his new and improved fighting moves.
    I’m guessing he won’t, but if he does, it will be adjustments that you and anyone else with half a brain in the martial arts, already do.

    Salute!

    • Sorry Steve-this is snibb. I have only a fraction of my posts going up so I figured if I put down a famous name I might be able to get through. It looks like it worked but it’s not really Paul Mills. This website is heavily censored so that only the most decisive posts seems to be making it through.

      My son did run some software however and figured out that Libby, Monfongo, survy, and Morgan are all the same guy. It appears that our boy Libby lips seems to be posting and then reposting under different names to drive traffic to his website.

      You talk about a fraud!
      We also don’t know for sure, but it appears that the trash(Libby)is not in Europe as he states but is somewhere right here in the US of A.

      • I never said I was in Europe. I live in SE ASIA. I have been here for 14 years. Snibbs I truly feel sorry for you. As to your assertions that I am using different bames, yiu are wrong. So let your imaginary son do all the web searches he wants.

    • Steve, look at the carrot symbol. Snibbs posted this as if he were Paul Mills.

  97. Mr. Libby,
    Geez, you must be seriously angry person. You can’t even carry on a debate in a civil way. Yelling (by all caps) at a dude writing poetry? Really? I bet you kick your dog too. Seriously, though, I look forward to your new and improved kenpo moves on You Tube. Be careful not to change the timing, prefix, or suffix with any added moves, or rearrange, or delete cause if you do, you’ll be doing Ed Parker Kenpo by using his alteration principles. If using the lead arm sucks for you, then don’t use it! See there? That’s called deleting, (part of the alteration principles) Still kenpo. Unless you jump up 7 feet high, and land on the attackers shoulders, that’s not in kenpo, We’ll have to give you that one.
    You mention you’ll be starting out with the 5 count technique, by that, you must mean Five Swords. (Hint: you don’t need to block, just take the fight to the attacker) Mike Pick does this very effectively. Still Kenpo.
    You say you taught at Ed Parker’s school and he was never there. That’s called delegating. He most likely was out of town sharing his knowledge and growing the system. If not, he could be home…with his family, So what?
    If I was running the school in his absence I would have considered it an honor to be the head instructor.
    When you tape yourself, we don’t need 15 minutes of your verbal analysis, just tape the techniques as you do them for everyone to be enlightened.
    You keep raising straw man arguments about things and controversies that have been fought decades ago. For example, The weakness of kenpo cross over manuevers, then you refer me to a blogpost by a kungfu guy in Australia, who posts a video of his Tiger/Crane form, which has nearly all crossover foot work. The blog then has a video of oriental karate tournament where one person backs up, and gets his legs tied up trying to retreat. Sorry for him, but what about the cross over moves of the late great Kenpo man Tom Kelly, where he sweeps his opponents to the ground and scores? (On You Tube by the way) This guy then spends a lot of time criticizing the open hand position of Ed Parker in various martial stances. Why? Don’t you think for any given moment Parker couldn’t make a fist if needed? And your blogger friend lumps Ed Parker’s hand position with Peter Sellers fake karate hands in Pink Panther, Hell, Ed Parker probably told him to do that for laughs! Ed Parker was in a few of those films as an assassin. You should watch those Pink Panther films, the laughter will do you good.
    Speaking of the poor stances of Ed Parker, sorry man didn’t see any, unless you referring to the demo from the Internationals where he systematically takes out his team. It’s a DEMO!, not a real fight, its a pre arranged display of you could do, not what may actually happen. See there? I’m defining what a demo is to you. Defending a position you should’ve known about years ago. (what a Demo is)
    Your constant insults to Mr. Crenshaw,… dude, he was on the mat with Mr. Parker before you learned to ride a bike. Lighten up. As for this book you claim Mr. Parker stole, You must be referring to the SOCK. (Secrets of Chinese Karate) A stripped down version of Two Man set is drawn there. I have a copy, it’s not for instruction, but for basic history and to generate interest in the martial arts. You really think Ed Parker made a lot of money with that book? If Woo was so cheated was there a law suit? How do you know Ed Parker didn’t pay him on his own?
    Get over this anger man, and yes I’ve been a few fights, and I did do fairly well, but as you said, punching heads hurts your knuckles. Mine were sore for a week, but I won the fight. I’ve been hit by Mike Pick, and tested in front of Skip Hancock and taught self defense at the college level. I have put in the time needed to attain my goals I’ve set, But for you, it is never enough.
    I served in the military, US Army, but you’ll say, why not the Marines, I attained the rank of Sergeant, you’ll say, how come not a Captain or General? I can do 40 push ups, that sucks, why not 100? I can swim, you’ll say, well, why haven’t you swam the English Channel? Your arguing is endless circular nonsense.
    You bang the podium about fake martial arts and artists. I get that we as instructors have a responsibility to pass on the knowledge so that our students are worthy of the rank they attain.
    Some people take martial arts to the ring and compete in MMA, boxing, whatever; others like the work outs and the confidence knowing a martial art gives them. So what if people don’t fight full contact, its not for everyone. And I caution that if a student did everything shown in Back Breaker, they will go to prison.
    Kenpo is a sliding scale man. You can take it to what ever level you want, military special forces, full contact, or 3 times a week, and a tournament on Saturday. Get over it.

    • A little more here- you say “how do you not know that Jimmy didn’t pay him off.” You classless accusatory little fuck. I do nit qgree wuth Jimmy’s system, but he is a man of great integrity who loves his students. For you to insult this 90 year old oegend sh8ws what a typical Kenpo shithead you are.
      So I am confusedl. A lit of videos say Mike Pick. I get one guy that looks my age with a bushy trey and blafk beard. The others have a ckean cut guy who looks like chemistty teacher. Which one is Pick? In either case my wufe said “honey, why do all these Kejpo always jyst Talk? When you teach you bite oeople and throw yhem around and actualky hut them.”
      Whoever I am seeing it is moer EPAI bullshit. And some comnented that they woukf gett killed in a street fight. So when and where?

    • Are you NUTS!!!I just watched a video of you in Tallahasee, FL going for yout 4th. degree. You are a putz. You have salt and pepper hair, glasses, about 50, snd I would guess 5’10” and 170. I have 6 month students that would tear you apart. I have to go to Califirnua, then to Dallas to see my grandchildren. After Dallas I’ll swing over to Tallahasee, we’ll dance. Are you still there? Pkease let me know. I realky want you to show me how deadly Kenpo is.

  98. I look at these comments and question your sanity. Skip Hancock “taught at a college level”. Are you nuts all the time? 2hat university offers MA as a degree?Then you talk about Tom Kelly sweeping a guy-in aNON-CONTACT TOURNAMENT!!! Then you accuse me of kicking my dog. I train dogs. I yave a 1/2 Rottweiler that worships the ground I walk on. A guy heard me talking about my dog. So he said to my friend “he would die for his dog?” My friend said “he would.” My wife once said “who do you love more-me or Kobe?” I said “you haven’t saved m5 life 6 times.” She knew I was kidding. You are so nuts that you would need 10 years of therapy to tie your shoes. You make insane generalizations abiut somebody you have never talked to and about a con artidt losthed by many. So to be blunt FUCK YOU YOU PRISSY LITTLE SCHOOL GIRL. You are a typical Kenpo clown. Same deal- when and where?
    Let’s have the metal meet the meat. I am 63 years old, have broken 30 or more bones, had 12 orthopaedic surgeries, and died twice and bet I can kick your candy ass all over the place. No rules, no cups, no bullshit. Judt you and me in your school mano a mano. Put up ir shut up.
    And your ideas about the back breaker are absurd. So when and where? And yes I want to video ut.

  99. You call Ed never being their “delegating”-no it’s calked lazy. You have every bullshit pseuro defense I have ever heard.. so when and where? What makes me angry is jerk offs like you that pose as martial artists and are frauds. If you served in the US ARMY I salute. All posts in the US armed services are honot0rable- whether it be cook or laundry, it is a team. I know peope that blast Chuck Norris because he served in an air force cargo unit. I defend his service in that without cargo the guys on the ground die. It is a team effort. You know nothing about me. I have had over 100 street fights- 90% were defending other people (I currently live in one of yhe most dangerous countries in the world, I have been here for almost 14 years). So who the fuck are you? When and where?
    You praise a man you have probably bever met. I saw his actions. He was a fraud. So when and where?

  100. Your such a tough guy trash(Libby-lips)! Friend of mine says he knows you. Says your “wife” is a dude. So not only are you a fraud, you’re also queer bait. Perfect you faggot. No we’re on to you

  101. OK, I have this figured out. Steve Shaffer writes a letter in support of a Kenpo guy to get his 10th. degree. This 7s also supported by “Ron Chappel, Ph.D..” Ron Chappel does not have a Ph.D. from any recognized university. You are all like TV evangelists- FRAUDS.

  102. Libby,
    Do you even listen to yourself??? I wrote that I have taught at the college level. This guy is comical everybody. Actually, sadly he’s a sociopath. Discussion closed, waiting on your awesome kenpo videos, please hurry.

    • Totally agree. Many posts ago the trash(Libby) was telling us how illiterate we are. Then we get to sample his English and grammar. Nothing but a big talking unemployed queer who posts all day long because he can. He doesn’t have a job.

  103. ROTFLMAO!!!!

  104. Hey you freaking ingrate faggot! Nobody agrees with you! The only people that do agree with you is you as you post under many different names. You’re such a stud!

  105. Libby,
    I’m still here, I’ve posted a video, yes, please show us your totally awesome kenpo. As for college level teaching, it was for classes at the rec center. Not a course for credit. So you have a school? what town? website?
    Stop in anytime, I teach on Thursdays.

  106. Rolling On The Floor Laughing My Ass Off!!!!

  107. Oh you’re such a stud trash!(Libby)

  108. Hey trash(Libby)-you mean you’re not smart enough to figure that out? So in addition to being a fag you’re also stupid. It’s 2015. Get some education tough guy.

  109. You really are stupid aren’t you? So what if you have a wife and kids? It’s called coming out of the closet. I’ll explain it to you sometime you queer. Does you female wife know about your male wife faggot. You’re such a stud!

  110. Ok, so now we’ve stopped discussing kenpo, to challenging each other, is this like a duel or something? So, you would spend extra money diverting your schedule to fly into Tallahassee just to punch me out to prove your kenpo is better than my kenpo? This sounds like a bad movie. Just post those videos you keep promising, we really want to see how you’ve improved Back Breaker, Thundering Hammers, Clutching Feathers, etc. I’m curious to see how you modified them to fit your combative reality.
    Is there anyone in Kenpo you respect?

    • OK, let’s do this. I think I am coming out in like 2 weeks. How about I stop by your school, and in a FRIENDLY COOPERATIVE fashion and I grab you. I will do a two hand front lapel grab and then show you why it does not work? I will show you why Triggered Salute does not work, and in an analytical polite fashion. I will show you why while doing the back breaker NOBODY is going to lay on your knee while you beat them up- Deal?

  111. This faggot is a pretender. He won’t respect anybody in kenpo because he’s a fraud and no one knows him.

    Where’s the video clowny?

  112. You’re doing a video with your friend? Is it a male friend you faggot? Just show us the video and skip your verbose and run on explanations. Where’s the video clowny?

  113. I’m addressing the c— s——-(you know who you are)that are saying I’m Robert Libby.
    You are all either stupid or senile.
    I want all you brainless p—– to get it right.
    And, to prove I’m not Mr. Libby, I am volunteering to stand with Mr. Libby(if he needs me)should all this nonsense escalate to a “throw down”.
    I ain’t here to play games.
    Stop kissing so much American Kenpo rectum.
    Robert Libby tells it like it is, he’s the real deal.
    End of story!

  114. Thanks again for your input Monfongo/Libby. Either that or your his faggot partner.

  115. Hey Monfongo. I guess according to Snibbs we are now getting married. I had better divorce my wife first. Also, where are you located? I looked up your name up and there are a lot of you. I did see a slight reference to you with the Inosanto Academy. And thanks so much for the support.
    As to Steve Shaffer- you and Mills, and several others have called me a liar, a sociopath and a fool. Well, I am smart enough not to do Kenpo anymore. All you people do is give each other a Kenpo handjob and talk about how great you are while you pass around high ranking belts like they’re popcorn. In the old days you wouldn’t have lasted 5 seconds with us. There was a plaque in the wall of the Santa Monica school that said “rest in peace Jim Demecke”- Scott Loring went after him and missed, but his fist went clean through the wall. Another time Scott was sparring with Tom Howard- Tom rolled into a ball to get away and Sott bombarded Tom with hooks and upper cuts to the body, and said “covering up won’t do you a bit of good.” In an interschool tournament Bob Eisele was sidekicked right in the face and got his front teeth knocked- he spit his teeth out and kept on coming. We jumped him to save his teeth for him and made him stop and go to the dentist to save the teeth. Tom Kelly (the Catholic priest, not the Utah one) would fight Dewey Cruise and blood would be flying (both were basically just boxers). Larry Hartsell would drag me into the mats or back area, and while wearing GI combat boots teach me, and would kick me with combat boots. We would turn the lights off and just have side light from the street, then we would do scenarioes of 1 on 1, 1 on 2 and people got banged up. Do your people train like that? NO FUCKING WAY!!!
    I gave you a long list of Kenpo people I respect. And I’ll tell you why:
    I respect Steve Sanders as he was in the USMC and served honorably, and was a Sheriff. I also trained a bit at the Black Karate Federation under Steve and Donnie- great guys.
    I respect Scott Loring for his raw abilities and intellect, and he was great teacher, but he made us fighters.
    But right around the ear;y 70s Kenpo went to shit. People bowing to us like we were GODS, forced to wear their belt knot at the side of their hip, and watching it become a cult. I was in a local LA supermarket with my girlfriend. A Kenpo green belt jumped in front of me, performed the very elaborate and long Kenpo salute, and then asled “is there anything I can do for you Mr. Libby?” I of course said “like what?” My girlfriend asked if he was nuts, and he embarassed me, and made a fool of himself. I was at the Urquidez Bros school and a Kenpo brown belt walked in and did the same thing- Arnold almost threw him out, it was embarassing.
    I always said some Kenpo guys can fight. In Chico, CA there are the Epperson Bros. Bruce Epperson had a squabble with another school. So Bruce went down to the school to fight the guy. The guy wore body armor, Bruce didn’t. Bruce dismantled the guy, but never once used a Kenpo technique. He used boxing hands with kicking.
    While in Chico we all had breakfast with Bill Wallace. And I was discussing the old days and how laughable tournamants had become- no standards, no form, power, or focus. Bill agreed 100% and the Eppersons and others were somewhat shocked by this. And Chuck can fight too.
    But as I look at this you have also referred to me as a “sociopath” and a clown. That nobody should listen to me. No, they should listen to you and your other Kenpo tough guys. And here is why-he hit him with a back knuckle, that’s Kenpo. He hit him with a right cross, that’s Kenpo. You teach that a technique is a series of basic moves. Yet none of your patterns as practiced wotk in that technique pattern. Sure, when you do Five Knives you look swell while he stands there and does nothing- very impressive. I too can hit and punch an unmoving object. Also, people hit back, and for real.
    So a duel? Sure. I will merely walk into your schol and as they say “own you.” But I will not hit you or kick you. Watch the video where a Gracie DESTROYS a Kenpo black belt in like 38 seconds. Then does it again. You’ll see that known Kenpo techniques could even come close to working, no eye shots, no Charging Ram as he took him down, and Charging Ram is the Kenpo defense for a tackle, just a Kenpo fool getting owned. Good thing for him it was not for real.

  116. LIsten to me you pathetic little fuck- if you want to insult me that’s fine, but don’t ever insult my wife or children again by your assertions or I will find you and pull your lungs out through your nose. And I can find you.

  117. Snibb,
    The only queer here is you.
    As for my input, like I said previously THE TRUTH ONLY BENDS ONE WAY!
    What do you think would happen if we stood face to face and your filthy, pyorrhea infested mouth said to me what you posted?
    I side with Robert Libby because he is telling the truth and all you big, bad Kenpo “lovers” decide to bad mouth me and try to embarrass me, what’s up with that Mr. Snibbs?
    Go jack off to a photo of Ed Parker asshole!

  118. Robert,
    I’m in Florida, but might be relocating to Nevada in this spring or summer.
    I got your back, no problem.
    You have my respect and support.
    Don’t waste too much more of your valuable time with these “talkers”, they got nothing better to do.
    Be well my friend.

  119. What happened to SW Asia? Like I said earlier, I already know you’re here in the States. You will find you’ll do better with your free-loader lifestyle in Nevada vs. Florida. It’s much cheaper out there. Your comments back and forth to yourself must certainly get boring. You are such a stud!

    Where’s the video clowny?

    I’ve been waiting for almost a year to be enlightened and shown how pathetic our techniques are.

  120. Wow trash- you are so tough! Your run on stories are so inspiring!

    Where’s the video clowny?

    You could have cut two entire, full length movies with the amount of time you’ve spent big-talking and ranting in here.

  121. I should be out soon. I have to go to CA first and then to see my 3 grandkids in Dallas Let’s try to hook up

  122. Yeah, sure thing cupcake.
    You’re such a stud Libby!
    Where’s the video clowny?

  123. This for the site moderator. It is time to block this snibbs jervey guy. His fomments are psychotic. OK, I do jot like Mills and he does not like me, but I do not infer that he is living in Europe with a transsexual, nor do I flaim that Steve Shaffer fucks goats. This guy is nuts and needs some controls put on him.
    THANKS

  124. “Fomments?”
    “I do jot like Mills…”

    And here you were a while ago telling us how we Americans(like you)are illiterate!

    Listen up you ingrate free-loading faggot-it’s too late because of your age to get some additional education, but at least learn how to use spell checker. Even a moron like you might be able to figure it out.
    I’ve said nothing about Steve, but you certainly did. As a matter of fact, I saw his video (unlike yours )and thought it was excellent. Who said anything about goats Nimrod?

    You threaten everybody in here, cuss at them and you can’t take being called a homo? You want me banned because of that? After what you’ve said to people?

    Here’s an idea- since you are the one runnnng this site why don’t you just ban me cupcake?

    You are such a stud trash(Libby)!

    Where’s the video clowny?

  125. Mr. Snibbs,
    Stop inferring that I am Robert Libby.
    For the record I am NOT Mr. Libby.
    And, I still work 8-10 hours a day for a living and still put in my training time to stay in top shape.
    You degraded Nevada by publicly stating it’s perfect for freeloaders.
    Go down to Vegas and tell the “boys” what you think.
    Have a “sit down” with Vinny, Vito, or Angelo :–)
    I’m sure they will offer you some Italian cuisine and vino while spew your opinions :–(

    • What’s that libby(monfago?)
      Vito who? That one of your imaginary goon friends!
      Easy to spot you post as others because of your writing style.
      You-like the cupcake-tell us how bad you are,how you stay in top top shape, threaten, etc.
      The other way to tell is your stupidity. I wasn’t denigrating Nevada at all by my comment(that would be “fomment” for you Einstein). Are you telling me that your dollar will go farther in Nevada than it will in Florida? You should have stayed in school past the 3rd grade Fruitty. Maybe a little less time in the weight room and more time staying current would serve you well monfago/Libby/trash.
      One last question:
      Where’s the video clowny?
      And if you are a different person-same question-where’s the video clowny?

  126. Yo Snibbs!
    You disgusting excuse for a human being.
    I detest your comments about my “goon” friends.
    Unlike you parasite, I don’t “lose” my friends just because they may follow a certain lifestyle.
    Is your wife a transvestite?
    Oh, sorry your “girlie boy” wears panties?
    Slob, what type training regiment do you follow?
    Oh that’s right you follow the Ed Parker program.
    You write drills on index cards and use your mind to embed the material into your Albert Einstein subconscious, right?
    Are your teeth as nice as his were?
    Do you walk around without bathing for week’s at a time like he did as you think up inventions?
    Your writing style and comments tells me you feel that your intelligence level is above mine and Robert Libby.
    Snibby are you a closet dumb f—?

  127. Yes, you’re right about one thing-I am smarter than you and trash(one in the same.)

    Keep up the strong work potato face.

    You are such a tough guy!

    Where’s the video clowny?

  128. Snibb,
    I never said anything about posting a video.
    However, here’s my proposal.
    If I, Monfongo post a video of me training and sparring, will you Snibb entertain to a sparring match with me?
    I’ll make it simple and easy.
    Headgear, 16oz gloves, 3 rounds.
    Now if your response is Kenpo in nature.
    I will entertain your suggestion, fair enough?
    With this post I hope we can put an end to the Monfongo and Libby are one and the same person BS.
    Have a nice day!

    • What are you talking about? You’ve been big-talking about a video for almost a year.

      And no-your little trick of recording a video with trash( Libby)won’t prove anything. I’m not that stupid. All you’ll do is take 1 of your 2 old geezer students that give it to you up the rear and say-“see- me and trash are 2 different people.” Nice try though. And no, I’m not interested in fighting your old lard butt because I don’t want to get sued when you get hurt-even with all the gear on. You’re such a stud monfago/ Libby!

      Where’s the video clowny?

  129. Don’t worry about me getting hurt and then sueing you.
    I will sign paper work so your off the hook.
    But, I’m not getting hurt Snibbs.
    It’s put up punk out time.
    And, I’m as serious as a heart attack about this.
    Maybe, we could have Robert Libby referee.
    I hold my own even now against pro boxer’s/kickboxer, and do OK rolling around with guys half my age.
    I’m not a tough talking paper tiger buddy.
    Street or sport I can handle myself very well.
    As a Martial Artist who is huge on respect I feel bad it’s come to this, but I’ve never allowed ANYBODY to get away with lip service and I’m not starting now.
    Yes or no, what’s your decision so that we can start working on the particulars?
    I’m not going to talk trash against you if you choose to step out.
    Sometimes, it takes a real man to realize when it’s best not to take chances.
    No lectures, just a yes or no.

  130. You’re a pretender.

    You’re so tough!

    I want to be just like you cupcake.

    Sure thing monfago/Libby

    Where’s thd video clowny?

    You are such a stud.

    You don’t have to be in such a bad mood just because you took it in the rear again last night.

    You’re not capable of not trash talking. After all-you are trash!

  131. Snibb,
    You just proved your all talk pussy.
    I said no lecture, just a yes or no.
    Like the little cunt that you are the queer talk starts.
    What a faggot!
    I shoukd rip out your tongue!

    • Dear Monfongo,
      I will probably be coming out in a week or two. I have to go CA, and then to Dallas, Texas to see my grandkids If that works out for you maybe we could knock that video out? Also, as you are In Florida, are you close to Tajjahasee?
      I would like to visit Steve Shaffer’s school and prove my points, but respectfully and not have any brawls. I would also like to show that we are not the same guy. And anybody with half a brain knows this not my site.

  132. Yeah, right Libby/monfago.

    Maybe if you get a job you’ll get a life. Oh that’s right-you only made it to the 9th grade so you can’t. Good luck with that loser.

    You are such a tough guy!
    I heard the only thing you’ve been ripping out is that thing up your back end!

    Hey stupid-where’s the video?

  133. You know what’s great trash(Libby/monfaggot/potato face, Morgan, Survy, etc.?) I get to unplug from this discussion and never hear from you ever again. I get the last word! You’re too stupid to figure that one out, I’m sure. It’s obvious that you’re a fake, fraud, chose your word. You’ve got nothing-other than an elementary education with the immaturity to match. You don’t like what somebody says, and old Libby/potato face, etc. will come and find you and beat you up! Oh boy, that scares me! You come in here and trash Ed Parker, Mills, and everybody else. The exception is when you keep re-posting as different people. Nobody here likes you. You huff, and you puff, but you can’t blow anything down. You can’t even produce a 2 minute video clowny! Even a queer-bait like you should be able to figure that one out. Oh yes, it’s that shortness of education again! I guess you will just have to live with that for the rest of your life.

    So, here is to me wasting a lot of time talking to a fag, posing as an expert on the martial arts, and Kenpo in particular. I won’t be asking for the video anymore clowny, because you can’t do it. You’re a pretender and everyone knows it. And who knows, maybe you will get a visit from DHS. I did forward your threats of violence. I can’t find you, but they can if they choose.

    Well you ingrate, uneducated, slurp from the public trough nincompoop, and big-talker, have a nice life. I sure wish I could have seen the video clowny. We all did. My advice is to leave the homosexual lifestyle. I can understand how no woman would want you, but that doesn’t mean you have to be a lube master.

    You lose.

    I’m sure you’re used to it.

    Bye bye potato face.

    HAHAHA!!!!

  134. Hey Guys,
    I wish I had never read this site.
    Libby, Monfongo, Snib, Mills, all of you for that matter.
    Is this how grown men and Martial Artists behave?
    Everyone of you should know better.
    You guys are suppose to be examples for the younger generation of Martial Artists.
    Whatever beef you all have it could have been handled differently and without all the vulgar language.
    Shame on everyone one of you.

  135. Well my apologies for that Carl. But in our defense when people call you a liar, when in fact you KNOW they are lying I react.
    Now let me answer your question in a different way. Americans always “deify” or “mystify” the martial arts. Here is an example- the 2 Lewis’s, Joe and Lennox.
    Joe Lewis, 6’0″ and 200lbs. was from No. ACrolina. Served honorably in the USMC as a radioman (VERY DANGEROUS JOB). Wnet on to karate and kickboxing. He did well, but to be fair was very overrated. He was a tough guy who trained hard. But his fans have said things about him that are inaccurate- I am not accusing Joe of anything here. HE is dead and died a credit to the arts.
    Lnnox Lewis- 6’5″ 245. Hit like a freight train ith 41 wins in 44 fights.
    The point to this is that Joe Lewis was always referred to as “lethal.” His “lethal” side kick, his “lethal” reverse punch. Lennox Lewis, who would mop the floor with JOe Lewis, was never referred to as lethal.
    Joe Rogan once said “I learned how to do something really stupid really well (Tae Kwan Do).”
    The point to this is that when a young man plays Pop Warner fotball he is learning how to play football. When a young man learns how to play baseball or basketball he is learning how to play that sport. When a young woman or man does BJJ or judo they are learning to do it right, and how they will street fight or protect themselves or family members. When most of our youth learn 90% of the martial arts out there they are being conned.
    To illustrate this point I will tell you about 2 incidents. One I was involved in, the other one my girlfriend, who was am ICU nurse, took care of the aftermath.
    I was in Portland, Oregon about 40 years ago. My acquaintance (I didn’t know him very well), a Kenpo black belt, got in a bar fight. HE nailed the aggressor perfectly with a tournament reverse punch. And like a tournament fighter he pulled his punch; then he got his clock cleaned. But how could that happen? He had trophies, he was a KEnpo black belt? But he had never done full contact work.
    While living in Chico, CA while at university, a, I believe 4th. degree in TKD got into a fight. I heard he told the guy “I am a 4th degree black belt.” THe other guy wasn’t impressed. So the TKD guy goes for a head kick. The other guy steps in, grabs the guy by the hair and justs lays waste to the TKD black belt. The TKD guy was at Enloe Hospital and was in jeopardy of losing his eye, or maybe just his vision. And his instructor was a guy that had “kicked the shit out of 5 Hellls Angels” in a bar brawl (reminds you of Mills’ story of Ed destroying 5 sailors with knives and clubs). This is the crap that can get you killed.
    So I am far more concerned about reality than some bad language. I am far more conceren that our kids learn reality than a load of high priced BS that can get them killed. I am far happier that some of my students chose to run rather than fight as they were taught. That they never relied on BS and far fetched hallucinatory stories from liars.
    Sorry for the language.

  136. Thank you.
    You have shown more class than the others.

  137. Robert:
    I’m in the Ft Lauderdale area unfortunately.
    I wouldn’t expect you to drive here, but if you ever do let me know.
    Your more than welcome to stay here and I can introduce you to guys here.
    Post a response and I’ll figure a way to get you my direct contact info.

  138. Who is this Squib guy?
    Is he ranked in Kenpo?
    Why all the arguments and bashing on Kenpo and Ed Parker?
    What’s the difference if he won most or lost a few street fights?
    Let the man have his dignity in death.
    We ALL make mistakes and have done something that we regret, but trying to be better is all that counts.
    Kenpo is a VERY effective Martial Art for the street.
    I am a 3rd in American Kenpo and 1st with the IKCA.
    The IKCA would not tolerate any of this nonsense that’s for sure.
    Anyway, as for effective self-defense I challenge anyone on this forum to find a better self-defense system than the IKCA offers.
    While I do cross train in some grappling, I have found that the IKCA has everything I need and more when it comes to protection techniques.
    So there is a very effective and compact Kenpo system that is readily available to anyone willing to come into this brotherhood with respect and an open mind.

    • Please watch “Gracie breakdown.” There is a streetfight between a black guy and a big white guy. The point to it is that the smaller black guy hits the other guy in the head and race several times;the whie guy weathered it and destroyed the black guy. Ask yourself a serious question- yave 7 ever REALLY BEEN HIT? A big element in a f7ght is what y8ur opponent can take, and Kekpo never addresses that super critical issue. Do some boxing and see what you can endure.

  139. I do not know what the IKCA is. After Ed’s death there were a lot of splinter groups formed. As to your comment about Kenpo being effective I would ask you to watch “Gracie fights Kenpo black belt.” The fight is over in like 37 seconds, and the Ken9o guy tried it again-same result. You mentioned Ed and a few street fights. I do not believe Ed ever had a fight as an adult. He ducked Milo Savage, he wouldn’t fight me, and he never taught nor trained. I do not feel that walking around talking for 2 hours is teaching.
    In regard to Kenpo you will hear terms like “cult”, “Kenpo cranial swelling.” Dealing with a Kenpo student or instructor is like dealing with a religious psychotic, they always yave a but or an if, or some explanation or option that you just “don’t get.”
    Test your skills. Go to an MMA school and see what happens. You will get your clock cleaned. Watch Joe R8gan with Bas Ruten on “fake martiao arts.” Good luck in your training.

  140. OK, I know the IKCA. I knew it as KC. It’s Chuck Sullivan and Vic Leroux. To be honest I know little about Chuck. But I do heavily disagree with him over fighting c8ncepts. I once said to him “I do not think that will work.” It was like I had pissed on a biboe. Vic Leroux is more open minded. The problek is they are BOTH 10th. DEGREES! Hoe many does Kenpo have? That seems quite classless to me.
    Back in the day I fought against Vic in our interschool tournaments. Vic is grewt guy, and I know he did some training with Ricuard Bustillo. I bel7eve he dan street right, but not with Kenpo tecuniques, just solid hasics. He can be quite wggressive.

  141. So what your saying is that you take some basic boxing, a few kicks, add a little wrestling and run, lift weights and that will better prepare someone for a real self defense situation over any Kenpo?
    What about Krav Maga?
    Is that better suited for street than Kenpo?
    I’m just trying to gain something positive from your comments.
    You would do people like me a great service by suggesting some training or an art or system that based on your experiences would serve us all better than Kenpo.
    I am not doubting your expertise or anything just looking for answers.
    Hoping I have not wasted my years on something that won’t help if and when I need it.

  142. Yoour first thoughts sounded good. Probably the best I have dealt with is Paul Vunak. See if he has an affiliate near you. I feel an important element in the dtreet is hitting open hand. Get a football, wrestling, and boxing rule book and master all the ILLEGAL STUFF. There is a reason it’s illegal. Also incorporate biting. Good luck with your training.

  143. Felipe, sorry for the shprt response before but I was in a meeting. Let me know where you live and maybe I can guide you to somebody. Also, many people act like BJJ is the only valid wrestling art, but never sell a good judo man short. Judo is a great art. Also, I have a concept I call “gi dependency”, and it is physical and psychological. The gi becomes your Superman suit. You feel weaker without it. And you rely on it for techniques where you grab on. People do not wear gis in the street. You should mostly work out of gi. You should also train with shoes as you usually fight with shoes on. Vunak does an “instant analysis”- does he smell like alcohol or cigarettes? How big is he? Does he move like a wrestler or a boxer? Does he look fit? Does he wear a lot of rings (do not do a hand destruction with an elbow to rings)?
    Also, never ever go outside withsomebody to fight. He may have a weapon that he will not use in say a bar, or he knows his friends are outside (that has happened several times to people I know).
    Never think that anything you learned is a waste of time. Take what you have learned, then change it and make it better. Good luck.

  144. I checked the Rogan/Rutten stuff.
    Also saw a video of some elderly kung fu master pointing at students from feet away and they would drop.
    Then, the same guy fights some dude in a gi top and shorts and gets destroyed.
    I guess you are right.
    Decided to eliminate all but 20 kenpo self defense drills and add bag punching and some wrestling to my arsenal.
    Also, do sprints and pushups for condition.
    Thanks for opening my eyes!

  145. Glad to be of service. The Kung Fu guy is “Kiai Master vs MMA.” He had never been hit, and that’s what I was talking about. What city do you live in? I may know somebody there.
    Paul Vunak has a street fighting series. Paul is a great teacher. He even has stuff to defeat ground fighters with filthy fighting. If you watch the “Gracie Breakdown” they even say that a UFC fight is not the street. There are no rules, and only unknowns. THat’s why the GRacies get so much respect; they are realists.
    I will end with a GRacie/Vunak story: Paul Vunak was talking to a GRacie. APul said “so what do you do about multiple attackers?” “That’s why I own a Sig 9mm.”
    Also, remeber this- if you are in a matched stance (right to right or left to left) block his back hand attack with you front hand, and his front hand attack with the back hand. That is the reverse of how Karate people do it. Always ask yourself “do they do it this way in boxing, BJJ, or Muay Thai?” If not check it out with somebody that knows. These people get hit for a living.
    Never do classical inward, outward, uoward, downward, or push down blocks. I am doing this video in February, and I will have some concepts on it, like how to block MUay Thai knees in the clinch. I will post it here after I download it.
    Good luck

  146. Squibby, oh Squibby, Squib…kind of quiet huh?
    OK, I am done too.
    Bye Bye :—(

    • Hey Monfongo. I just noticed that somebody posted as Paul Mills, yet it has Squibb’s carrots symbol. So who is posting as two people? Maybe tha’s why he dropped off.
      OKAY, I am going to try and post tonight. Some of my English students bought me a Samsung Galaxy Pad for a present. You can do a lot of stuff with it. I will be showing why NOBODY should believe Mills ( I have printed up 2 copies from The Deseret News and Knightridder news service showing that Mills was sued and the report shows some pretty shaky dealings). The report he said doesn’t exist. And as he did an archive search so what he says must be true. I hate to be this petty and do not care about the suit.; it is merely about credibility.
      If this posts OK to Youtube I will add 1 video a week. I am using my daughter’s boyfriend as my “dummy.” Great kid with no training, but he is convenient.
      I will title it Bad Kenpo Techniques.

  147. Ola!
    I Marquito fron Equador.
    Live now in Arizonas.
    The saying fron Senor Squib is very malo.
    He says bad comment about the Gay communidad by says words like faggot.
    Marquito is from that and I too Sandan in Karate and Nidan en
    Judos.
    I proof that los hombres patos can do Ates Marcials and good fighter also.
    Now make demand publico from Senjor Squibb to say he sorry to my kind for says diplor comments and refer to mys kind like we no good.
    Por favor say perdone to us who too have excellente fight and Karate abilidades.
    Just cause we differente no mean se no good con artes marciales.
    Apoolgozes in responde and my type forgive Senor Squobb.

  148. Problem is I have seen the Gracies lose as well now and in the past (Kimura). Does this demean in some way what they teach? I think not.
    Did Parker open the World to yes even the Brazilian System?
    Have any of you talked to Bill Ryusaki and see what he thinks? I have.
    What does the world benefit from one man smearing another who is dead?
    Does a technique work in every circumstance; it does not.
    Does every art form answer every question in every scenario; it does not.
    Is one man better than another? He is not.
    All men have failed, all arts have failed. Many to men who lie dead on the field of battle.
    I have fought many, many, many times. So many I am tired of always fighting.
    Only a fool or a madman wishes to fill his life with rage and anger, and continuous combat.
    This was the lesson that Gahndi learned, and also what Miyamoto Musashi.
    Were they afraid? No in fact they showed much more bravery in not fighting.
    This seems to be the lesson that some on this blog have not learned.

    Did E.P. know what he was doing? I say he did, he had been young and had the gunslinger attitude.
    But a wise man learns his limitations and then respectfully avoids confrontation unless absolutely necessary.
    His heart dictated that.
    So my suggestion to anyone is that of Musashi
    “The way is in the training.”
    Not always fighting.
    Keep Training
    OSU!

  149. WOW! That was some major psychobabble bullshit. You said nothing of any value. Just another meaningless history less8n, much of which was errant.
    The Gracies actually fought, Ed Parker did not. What is to be gained is that some poor person does not get killed by putting their faith in techniques of no value.
    And did you actually compare Ed Parker to Musashi and Gandhi?
    So what did Ryusaki say? Just idiotic inuendo by you. And the way is in the training when what is being taught is valid, and what Ed taught was not valid.

  150. These threads have been going on a very long time. Paul Mills- 10th degree Parker Black- practiced Kenpo Techinques at his own bar in Wyoming. Larry Tatum-10th Parker Black, watch him on u-tube and learn.
    Im a 4th Parker Black been in real fights, Parkers Kenpo works in real fights. Don’t talk about a man after he passes and can’t defend himself. Look at Frank Trejo now, if you don’t take care of urself your health will not last.

  151. What the hell would Larry Tatum have to teach me? Watch a blog called “path of least resistance” by Dan Djurdjevic. Parker was 32, wearing a black belt, and looks laughable at best. Why don’t you drop your bullshit Kenpo ego and watch say Paul Vunak. And you seem to forget thst I chose Parker off to fight for threatening to hurt my beginning students when Parker was alive. He never called me directly because he was a punk. I am sure that you, like Mills, just make up stories to perpetuate the Parker myth. So please spare me the advice from a Kenpo brainwashed fool.

  152. I search for Kenpo facts and history, find this site, read all of yhe comment.
    I then call my cousin in Honolulu whose neighbors are older Kaju guys and knew both Parker and Emperado.
    Would you like to know what I wastold?
    The Emperado crew were bad ass and fought real fights.
    One was knifed to death.
    Parker was know as a big boy who had “decent” speed for a “slob” and 0 fights that they knew of.
    They gave him excellent reference as a teacher, but that was all.
    Mills seems to be the real deal from the YouTube videos I have seen.
    All I’ve heard about Tatum is that he rearly if ever hits the heavy bag and doesn’t like for his students to hit it either.
    What was amusing to read was Parker taking out a bunch of guys who were armed.
    If true, someone should go to the jurisdiction where the beating occurred and see if there is any substantiating document to verify this story.
    As for Paul Vunak, while a legitimate bad ass he was beaten within an inch of his life by a biker gang who didn’t care much about his credentials or Martial Arts skills or reputation.
    Even Vunaks street oriented training was no match for biker-street fighter types(some scary dudes btw).
    All these arguments are pointless.
    When someone like Paul Vunak gets trashed, what’s going to happen to the average, but well schooled kenpo guy?
    Let’s play devils advocate.
    Let’s put Mills, Tatum, or any top notch kenpo guy in Vunaks place the night he fought those bikers.
    What do you guys think would have happened?

  153. Your comments are somewhat rambling, but I feel they are somewhat inaccurate. I know little about the Emperados. But I do know Vunak. So you claim he was beaten by a biker gang. So would anybody else. Your point about how would Tatum, Mills, or a top notch Kenpo guy is simple to answer- they would get slaughtered. Your are comparing an amazing streetfighter, Vunak, to a bunch of unproven mat warriors. I have never seen Mills on Youtube. But I do kow that if he is doing non-contact sparring or techniques against an inanimate person it means nothing. And if you are trying to say that “top notch” Kenpo practitioners are in Vunak’s league you are seriously deranged.

  154. What I meant was that the biggest names in kenpo would do worst than Vunak.
    Are you familiar with the biker incident?
    Unfortunately, nothing that Vunak tried worked and he wound up in the icu.
    I guess what I’m trying to convey without rambling is that if it happened to someone as legit and street skilled as Vunak the rest of us would be doomed.
    After I first posted my friend who made brown with the Speakman crew said that Jeff wasn’t too happy with all the comments about Ed Parker.
    My response was that Speakman should join in and make his opinion known.
    Out of curiosity, does anybody here know of Count Dante and was he street certified?
    All this has peaked my interest in who from Parkers era that had name recognition and rep was the real deal.
    Come on guys educate me.

    • Greg,
      About Count Dante. Black Belt magazine did a 3 part cover story on him in Jan-Mar 1977,. to shed a little light on him. He died in May, 1975, was the founder of the Black Dragon Fighting Society” a mail order karate lesson company. His real name was John Keehan from Chicago, a Marine and Army vet. that had some credentials from Robert Trias’ USKA,
      The articles dive into his background in martial arts, his ‘death matches’, and sadly how he got mixed up in the death of Jim Concevic during the so-called ‘dojo wars’ of Chicago during the late 60’s. His students call the system Dan-te.
      The magazine Defense Combat (Official Karate publicaton), in Oct 1976 profiled the Dan-te leader Bill Aguair, and presented the Dan-te philosophy, an attitude of fighting, not heavy on techniques, but a willingness to jump in. The techniques that were published, showed a mix of elbows, and knees, a shoulder lock, and smashing a head onto a table & striking with a pool cue, (using the environment around you as a weapon) all moves and ideas taught in… wait for it,….kenpo.

      Steve

      • Count Dante has been rated as one of the biggest frauds in MA as has Frank Dux. Steve, you are truly a martial arts idiot. I keep hearing how “bad” uou Kenpo guys are. You are a 4th. DEGREE EPAK BLACK BELT. How about we hook up and see who is still standing? No rules, no bullshit, and no referees. And I am dead fucking serious. A round-trip from Dallas to Tallahasee is like 150. How about it punk? Put up or shut your fuvking pie hole. Iam much older than you and an orthopaedic wreco, but I can kick your ass. So no keyboard antics, me againdt you.

  155. OK-I have been around since 1965. Scott Loring-he could do stuff you would not believe. He was 6 feet tall, 210 pounds and moved like a lightweight. Bullet quick with big hands and feet. We had a rule- Scott and Larry Hartsell were not allowed to spar as nobody wanted to try to break that mess up. George Quinones- technically not the best, but mean and tough. Steve Sanders-Precision in motion, and what a true gentleman, warrior, and friend.
    I am not familiar with the biker incident so I will not comment on it, but I do remember when Vunak was truly cool with my son Aaron, and he still remembers Vu. I deeply respect Vu, but he has his demons.
    Compared with the crew I came up with I view the current Kenpo crew as punks. I see them adding groundfighting that is a joke, and lacking grit.
    Take Huk Planas, a great guy. A talented knife maker, good with a gun, and couldn’t beat me up when I was 16. He is not a fighter. Larry Tatum is technician, but I doubt ge could take a shot. Speakman’s credentials are specious at best.
    I currently live in one of the most dangerous countries in the world-Thailand. Do not believe the travel brochures. In every bad category, human trafficking, drugs, murder, stabbings, rape, etc., Thailand is one of the worst in the world. I have been here since 2001. I have been tested numerous times. The Kenpo crew of today wouldn’t last a week. They don’t have any Hartsells or lorings. They are far too self-absorbed and deluded by their high ranking belts.
    As to Speakman not being happy, I personally don’t give a fuck. I am glad he beat throat cancer, but he isn’t fit to carry Scott Loring’s or Larry Hartsell’s jock strap. I am 63, I have had 12 serious orthapaedic surgeries, and according to the team surgeon for the Raiders football team more fucked up than any Raider he has ever seen, could shred Speakman. Why? Because I can take pain, and know what areal fight feels like. I know what it is like to be punched, kicked, stabbed, choked, and keep going. Speakman and the new breed do not have that type of grit. I got it from Hartsell, Paul Dalton, Loring, and being tested in the street, not the mats.
    As to Count Dante I I know nothing about him, but have heard of him.
    Mills will not respond to this, but it is openky known. Ed went from 1st. Degree to 5th., promoted by his cronies. Then 5th. to 10th., once again by his cronies. How can he be taken seriously? Please look at dandjurdjevic. It is a blog and should come up with “the terrible truth about Ed Parker”. In it Ed is laughable, as he is in all videos he is in.

  156. Sounds to me like you know what your talking about.
    Must see some good Thai boxing over there.
    May I make a suggestion?
    We need someone like you to teach a course on real life street defense.
    As you know, the “in” thing seems to be home study.
    Is there anyway possible for you to produce a DVD home study program?
    I would be the first to buy it.
    Other than that, can you suggest alternatives?
    Hey, I believe you.
    Getting punched in the face changes things if you never dealt with it.
    Maybe you could go on one of those fundraising sites to get the money needed to produce your street self defense program.
    It looks like you have a lot to offer.

  157. First, you mentioned seeing Mills in a video. Can you submit an address. I have been looking and all I get are interviews or his talk show.
    The problem with a video series is marketing. It is hard to get past the companies that run the magazines. They want a massive percentage of the sales. But I have been asked to do this before.
    I now have a “tablet” and my daughters are showing me how to do movies with it. I have an ancient camcorder that is 8mm tape, very slow. I am going to post a trial video in a few days. This will be to express my opinions, set the record straight in regard to Mills’ credibility, and just see how it works. I have never put anything on Youtube and technology wise I am a Flintstone.

  158. OKAY, this is for all. I now have a Samsung Galaxy Pad. It does a lot. I am going to try and post a narrative video tonight. If that goes well I will post again this weekend. I am 14 hours ahead of the US west coast.
    I will show some documents and explain what I am trying to do. Then later I will use my daughter’s boyfriend as my “dummy.” I will start with the 5 count, 5 swords, 5 knives, whatever you call it. Then on to Clutching Feathers, then the Back Breaker. After that Triggered Salute, then Lone Kimono and Twin Kimono.
    I will show the modifications to take the 5 count from a stupid technique to a viable one. With Triggered Salute I will prove mathematically why it, like so many other Ed Parker techniques, are physically impossible to do. Also why they leave you so open to be hit.
    My daughter will be running the camera so it may be a little shaky as to professional quality.
    If you would like me to break down a technique and show a viable alternative I will gladly do it. But some techniques are not fixable- Clutching Feathers for example. I may not know the name of the technique but will look it up. Some of the techniques start great ( Back Breaker, Triggered Salute). then go to shit. Some can be fixed by changing the blocking methods.
    In closing, would somebody please tell me why a technique was devised for a person shaking your hand? And a very stupid one. I also want to show a Kenpo concept called the “1 o’clock punch” that can damage your arm if done.

  159. Okay- I have a narrative video up. This was my first time uploading so the title came up as 20150220 1415361 Now I know where the title goes. It used the video number from my camera. This was an experiment by me and to set some things straight, like credibility. There is no action for now, that will be in a few days now that I have the right equipment.

  160. Okay- while talking to a student we decided that I should do a safety video first. I feel it is more responsible to tell beginners what they need to be safe and do things properly.I will also recommend certain types of safety equipment so you stay safe.
    Also, someone asked about training on their own to learn-NO!. Some grapplaing techniques can do serious orthaepedic damage, and beginners are the most dangerous to work with. You should not be “experimenting” until you have a solid foundation.
    It seems that if you put in bobbomorgan you can see the first video. It really just me talking. The fighting part comes in a few days, but now I know it will post and what to change.

  161. mr libby,,, you trash talk kenpo,,, you say you can handle all the big name kenpo guy,,, may i make a suggestion,,, go look up mike pick,, he is a 1st generation black under mrr parker, he also fought in the marines during vietnam,, where he says what he learned from ed parker saved his life,,, go trash talk mr parker or his art to mr pick,,, better yet go visit his ukf federation headquarters school in calif,, and challenge him… but please ,,, let me know what hospital or morgue,, you end up in

  162. Maybe he’d beat me, but not if he uses Kenpo. And I always love how Kenpo idiots always refer to the hospital or morgue, what a pack of clowns.

  163. And 90% of this is from the mouth of Ed Parker. And I love time references like 9 seconds. Was it being timed. Let me give you another quote, “when Parker ran the tournament the bills didn’t get paid.” All you do is quote a liar. So let’s recount his credentials:
    1. Never got a black belt
    2. Promoted to 5th and 10th by his pals
    3. Stole his 2nd book from Jimmy W Woo, and that was openly known
    4. At age 32 had basics that were so bad they were a joke, not even say a good blue belt, and there is video proof of this
    5. Never trained or taught
    6. Would not fight me, threatened to hurt my students, and had Lelani call me to duck the fight
    And you use Mils as a source, the man who said he ran an archive search in the Deseret News and no such article exists, yet I have copy of it. Hmmm, so who lies here?
    So where is any proof of Ed’s skills? I have been watching lots of videos of all these Kenpo badasses who just beat up guys who stand there- so what? And I have been reading posts by other Kenpo idiots that say “MMA is just a sport and not a deadly street system like Kenpo.” Are you all completely fucking nuts? Go fight Chuck Liddel or George St Pierre and see what happens in a real fight, you will get destroyed. So many competent martial artists talk about the Kenpo ego and how ridiculous it is. You are all so hopelessly brainwashed.

  164. Let me post this again in case you missed it dandjurdjevic.blogspot Please look at the videos of Ed and Dan’s analysis. He was pathetic. So if Chow gave him a brown I cannot figure out how. So I can have zero confidence in anything he says. You also forget that money is a great shaper of opinions. And as Ed had hos pals promote him how can you take him seriously? And 5 young guys with knives and clubs0 BULLSHIT!!!! A complete fabrication.

  165. Who are the 8 people with a 10th you were talking about in your video?

  166. Okay, Larry Tatum, Albert Cornejo, Huk Planas, Vic Leroux, Steve Sanders and Chuck Sullivan are the ones that come to mind right now. Albert used to teach me, I used to compete against Vic in inter-school tournaments, I’ve worked with Huk when I ran the Santa Monica school, Tatum took over as I was leaving, and Chuck ran the Crenshaw school with Steve Sanders. Albert just got his 10th. a few months ago.
    I am a little curious over all the silence about the claims I’ve made; nobody says Ed wrote his second book, nobody denies he was promoted by his pals, never comment on the EP videos and how bad they are, or says I didn’t choose him off other than Snibbs who is nuts, and Mills who lied about something as provable as a newspaper article and lawsuit.
    At least my video stuff is finally starting. I am doing one tomorrow or the next day. I have decided to start with Triggered Salute as it has a great beginning to a shit end with a great timing example as to why Kenpo will usually fail in the street. I will do the safety section at the same time. I may expand the technique as so many are so flawed.

  167. I forgot Steve LaBounty and Tom Kelly, at least I heard they both has 10th.s

  168. Mr. Libby.
    You really need to get back on your meds. I quote and summarize few articles from 38 years ago about Count Dante who’s been dead since 1975. (FYI- I was answering Greg’s question) And all you can do is cast insults and threaten to beat up someone you don’t even know.
    I’m happy you’re not in Kenpo anymore. Your unhappy life, vulgar mouth, threats and insults are not the sort of traits of a person that Ed Parker ever wanted as a representative of his system.
    Because you can’t seem to control your anger, we have a special place for people like you…it’s called jail!
    Oh, and bragging about all your fights seems to me that you keep on being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Who’s the idiot?
    Be sure if you fight me to not punch me. Punches are in Kenpo, don’t knock me down and stomp me that’s Dance of Death, a Kenpo tech; avoid choking me, that’s an attack from Escape From Death, don’t use kicks either since there’s Kicking Set also in Kenpo; elbows? Nope can’t use those, still found in Kenpo, you could apply locks, they hurt, I would tap…no wait, nope also found in Kenpo.
    I suppose you could slap me. Yep, slaps aren’t in Kenpo. Palm heel strikes are, but I’ll allow you to modify them. We’ll, there you go. You win!
    Enjoy your visit to the states and hurry back to Thailand there’s a fight waiting for you.

    • You seem to forget that I chose Ed off when he was alive. He ducked the fight, not me. And for you to say “non-technique is Kenpo” merely proves that you know nothing. They spend 70% of their training on techniques. How dumb are you?

    • I love the part about an Ed Parker representative.” Ed was a liar, thief, and back stabber who threatened to beat up white belts, stole his second book, and wore black belts he never earned.

  169. No, I had fights because I worked clubs. 90% of my fights have been protecting others. But what I love is your cult like adherence to Kenpo stupidity. So if I use a single move like a back knuckle and it works it is Kenpo? Are you really that dumb? I was watching a Paul Vunak video with some Kenpo guys; anything he did they would all start shaking their heads in perfect harmony like a bunch of bobble heads and parrot “that’s Kenpo.” So why not put your skills to the test? You study the most complete system in the world, devised a street fighting genius, what have you to fear? I feel it’s because at your coe you know what I am saying is true.
    So no, I don’t need meds, I just get really tireed of seeing all the martials arts con artists rip people off.

  170. He Steve, just read something very interesting, but it may not be true. That Jeff Speakman said, at a seminar in front of a lot of Kenpo black belts in Venezuela I believe, that “old Kenpo is bullshit and BJJ and MMA styles are the way to go.” WOW, from the Perfect Weapon? And he is agreeing with me? Only I add a lot of filth to the game.
    So where are some comments about how good Ed looks on the dandjurdjevic.blogspot? Where are the remarks abot Ed being promoted by his cronies. I may get pissed about fake martial arts, but at least I am grounded in a martial arts reality, not a con game.

  171. It seems that if you just go to youtube and put in bobbo morgan you get he videos. I have laoded a narrative, a safety one, Triggered Salute, and Twin Kimno

  172. Holy Fucking Narcissism

    Why wait till now?
    Why not beat the guy up when he was alive and film it or take pictures of it?
    Why wait 20 years after the man dies?

    That is why BL was always challenged people knew if they could beat him they will have the clout.

    All these so called artists are throwing boxing punches with no rebounding effect you see the old masters like Parker,Bruce Lee demonstrating in their Non-Techniques.

    Why are older artists arguing over the effectiveness of a base technique when base techniques dont work
    Non-Technique is the way to go and is part of JKD and Kenpo.

    Even Steve Sanders is on Youtube claiming Bruce Lee stole ideas from him and was not a real fighter.

    I hate con artists who dont even know how to throw even a proper martial arts punch (actually you dont throw it the waist does) and then claim that they are here to expose the real fakes.

    Look in the mirror:)

  173. You seem to forget that I chose Ed off when he was alive. He ducked the fight, not me. And for you to say “non-technique is Kenpo” merely proves that you know nothing. They spend 70% of their training on techniques. How dumb are you?

  174. Why are all you senior Martial Arts experts beating up on a boring, dead topic?
    So what if Parker was fat, out of shape, and lazy?
    Was he all that bad and pathetic?
    I’m sure Parker did some good for someone.
    Surprising that not one of the heir apparants to AK or some of his remaining lineage people have failed to step up and give real examples of good things the man did.
    I do not particularly like kenpo do to it’s hundreds of tech philosophies.
    But, I do find it very repulsive that grown men are on this forum bickering about a man who is no longer alive and weather or not he was good or legit.
    Parker can’t be the only hyped “legend” that has questionable background in his MA history.
    John Keehan aka Count Dante was also a hair cutter who was hooked up in several business dealings with the syndicate in Chicago.
    The karate war was due to a beef between schools.
    Unfortunately, some of Keehans loyal students died or were hurt because they didn’t realize what they were getting into.
    They went to to back up their instructor Count Dante.
    I’m not a Parker croonie but enough is enough.
    Let the poor guy RIP.

  175. You mentioned that the Count Dante followers “didn’t know what they were getting into.” That’s my main point here. When people learn unrealisitc principles and are told they are say a real 4th. degree black belt they may get into a bad situation and get clobbered. I only personally know of two- one a Kenpo guy and one a Tae Kwan Do black belt. The Kenpo guy got rattled a bit, the TKD guy went to the ICU for 2 weeks. I feel that there is so uch irresponsible teaching going on and it should be addressed.
    As to why the AK people do not speak up it is because after EP died there was a massive scramble for power. Ed never named a successor so they all started using a successful Parker concept- I’ll have my friends promote me to 10th.
    As to dangerous teaching, I just saw a photograph from a piece done a few years ago with a photo of Ed Jr. He was being attacked by a tonfa being swung like a club. He used an outward forearm block to stop a club- as dumb as it gets. That type of garbage teaching gets people hurt

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  177. Mr. Libby,
    You are right on with your insight on Kenpo.
    I must say that I agree with you on many things.
    My main concern is the brow beating on Parker.
    Everyone here has to understand that the man has family that is still living and the commentary here could be very hurtful.
    I detest lazy MA who hold high rank and don’t train as much as you do.
    I also agree that Kenpo is extremely overrated as a self defense system and fight in style.
    May I also add that going back as far as 1995 UFC the few Kenpo guys that have fought MMA have been humiliated.
    So, there’s no arguing with what you have said.
    Is there anything good that you remember Parker doing?
    Did he ever offer to teach someone with no money for free?
    Did Parker ever donate to charity?
    Or, was Ed Parker simply rotten to the core?
    BTW, he gave Presley a Black Belt.
    Was it earned and was Elvis decent?
    There’s quite a bit of interesting stuff here that should be put out there.

  178. Dear Mr. Putnam, as to Elvis, no, he was a joke, but I met him twice and a really nice guy. And he was very charismatic, and he gave millions to charity. Ed was hard to figure. I truly believe he was nothing but a con artist. One must look at his wearing a black belt that was questionable at best. And being promoted from 1st. to 5th. and then 5th. to 10th. by his pals is too weird and whorish for me. I feel that Ed only cared for Ed. I realize that this could be hard for his family, but I see little difference. Kenpo just has too many cult elements to it. And I am not the only person he screwed.
    But what is so perplexing is why he went after me over some bizarre story from a green belt who had not trained in years. We arrived at the Santa Monica school one morning and there was yellow tape from the IRS and I was like “what the hell?” So I couldn’t open the doors. Back then Ed had Santa Monica, Long Beach, Pasadena, ahd Crenshaw. Once the smoke cleared we all got together and pooled money. We took out all the mats, cleaned everything, got paint and compressors and repainted all the schools. Once we got rolling again I was running the Santa Monica school. We were rebuilding but had proboems. George Waite came to me more than once and explained there wasn’t enough to pay instructors like Sam Estrada, so I told George “pay them and you can owe mel”. I always took my students and indtructors first. So why would Ed attack me? When I left Ed and I shook hands and we parted as friends, and he assured me he woukd get me my 3rd. degree certificate. There were no problems. So why didn’t Ed just call me? Instead he threatened students; very low class behavior.
    My goal here us to help martial artists to realize how to be more effective, not to damage people. But it has gotten rather angry and distrorted. But the angriest ones are either brainwashed or have money or prestige to lose. Or they could be revealed as con srtists.
    In closing, the only reference I have to Ed being kind or generous was with Mike Pici. I have never net Mike.

  179. saw your video,,, it sucked,, only five ways to punch or handle a punch,, you totally ignore grafting kenpo tech for the street which any purple belt knows…

    • So you want me to use id iotic ideas that are proven not to work? Where are the Kenpo guys in MMA? Either choked out, tapped out, or knocked out. Why don’t you go starch your gi and slap yourself for awhile. When you’re ready to do REAL MARTIAL ARTS WITH REAL MARTIAL ARTISTS prepare to get humiliated. So which poser do you train with?

    • Yeah, and I just saw a KEnpo 5th. degree doing a “reverse tigers mouth” for a knife defense. Man, you are dunber than my Rottweiler. All yhese big terms you throw around are mere bullshit compiled by a fraud.

  180. Mr. Libby,
    I was checking around the net and two of the people you mentioned with respect Vic Lo Roux and Chuck Sullivan have a study at home kenpo program based on their own version.
    It says it’s a leam version of AK with fewer workable techniques that they claim makes their which they call IKCA more street suited.
    Are you familiar with it and is what they offer better for self defense than the other stuff?
    It looked interesting because they only have like 50 total techniques.
    I’d be interested in your opinion.
    Thanks.

    • Dear Mr. Putnam, could you give me a little more background; for example, age, height, weight, any disabilities or injury issues, and city. Then I can better help you. Also, what do you hope to accomplish? I may know a qualified instructor in your area. And DVD training can be very risky.

    • I knew Vic La Roux. He was a dedicated Ed Parker student and friend.

  181. I just have very little faith in Kenpo techniques. They also have very weak defenses and are easy to nail with hooks. They fight in that stupid side horse, use a slow and ineffective blocking system, and have no ground game. They also do not use a hook. I would recommend Paul Vunak or Matt Thornton. Larry Hartsell has a great book called “Entering, to trapping, to grappling.”
    a basic boxing book is good to, but modern boxing not fr8m say 100 years ago.
    As to Vic and Chuck, they are great guys, but I cannot agree with their 8verall guiding Kenpo philosophy.

  182. This is so funny Mr. Libby, everyone who trains Taekwon Do sucks, trains Kenpo sucks. Paul Vunak does very good JKD. Who were his opponents? Are you looking for the best Streetfighter? I met a lot of those great names, Ed Parker, Ed Downey, Steven Labounty, Bob White and a lot of other great fighters from other Systems. MMA has a lot of great fighters! Sure, why the Gracies didn’t fight against Emin Boztepe? Only bad talking makes no sense! Your Video is ok, nothing new.

    • The fight between the Gracie and Boztepe didn’t happen because Boztepe had no provable fights. Boztepe claims 300-0, doubtful. They offered him an opportunity at the Gracie’s Torrance, CA school. So saying the Gracies would not fight Boztepe is not accurate.

  183. Actually most TKD people do suck, and Vunak does a lot more than JKD, he is a great boxer and weapons guy. And virtuaaly every person you mentioned is a tournament fighter. And I have never seen a v7deo like mine that shows the weaknesses. I also feel I have given positive direction to several people. A jajor reason for this is that I have dec7ded to debunk Kenpo methods 8f hitt7ng- can you say broken hand, busted wrist, and dislocated ligaments. And their knife defenses are flat out dangerous and stupid. Should people learn what is valid or hyped up crap? Virtually all the MA punching and kicking systems are outdated, waste too much time onuseless katas, and lack sound concepts. So please look at the Kenpo “lance” techniques, then judge whether or not what I am doing is valid. I do respect your input and thank you for your reply

  184. Here’s the deal everyone.
    I studied boxing with a three time Olympic level fighter.
    Spent six hard months learning the techniques.
    I then took Tang Soo Do for three months just to pick up some kicks.
    Now all I do is cross train working two days boxing and kicking,
    one day power lifting, and one day where I go to the local PAL just to spar a few rounds.
    I have friends who have black belts in kenpo, japanese karate, and Taekwon Do.
    I have sparred them and with my limited knowledge of Martial Arts have ko’d both on several occasions.
    Now, don’t get me wrong a few times they have landed some good shots that hurt but none of them could handle my punch combos or when I mulled them, pushed them around and started to dig body shots to the ribs.
    Been in a few altercations did I could not talk myself out of.
    My personal workouts and simple training served me well each and every time.
    Four punch boxing combinations, front, side, back kick, parrying, slipping that’s it.
    Some form of strength workout is important for defense too.
    My kenpo friend is outstanding with his stuff, and he’s used it on the street.
    But for all his years of practice he had trouble handling me.
    Simple things work best.

  185. Spot on. Seems like a good training method. In my next three videos I have decided to do “why Karate can destroy your hands, one on boxing ideas, and one on how horrifically stupid Kenpo knife techniques are, they can almost guarantee a serious injury or death. Only maniacs or criminals come st you with knives.

  186. Hey guy!
    It’s been awhile.
    See some interesting posts and glad to read that Mr. Libby is getting his due respect here.
    I also see that the “tough talkers” that were bad mouthing me have decided to “tap out” and call it a day, great!
    We are all better served by reading and digesting some if not all of what Robert Libby is trying to relay to those interested in real training.
    BTW, I saw his video and it looked pretty darn good to me.
    Let me get back to the beach(Boca Raton).

    • Dear Monfongo, thanks again for the support. In a day or two I will get to knives. So many MA people are just clueless as to what to do with a knife.
      Also, to everybody out there, before you judge me take a look at the world I live in, so please watch the following on Youtube:
      man uses Muay Thai on girlfriend
      Thai taxi driver kills American with sword
      Thai man dances after killing two people
      I have had about 25 fights here just about stopping Thai men from beating women, and I mean knees on the chest punching them in the face. During one incident at a club/restaurant a guy had a girl pinned on a table. As he started hitting her in the face every man there turned, picked up their drink, and acted like it was “dinner and a show.” So when I grabbed the guy EVERY MAN there stood up and said “you never touch a Thai man FOREIGNER.” What should I have done? So before a punk like Steve Shaffer judges me, please look at the vidoes.. I do not start fights. Other fights have been over hurting my dogs, trying to rob me, and offending my daughters, and I will always protect my family

    • Steve Shaffer

      In Defense of Ed Parker, Founder of American Kenpo Karate
      By Steve Shaffer,
      4th Degree Black Belt,
      American Kenpo Karate

      It seems odd and sad really that at the 25th year of the passing of Ed Parker, there’s a need to defend the reputation and accomplishments of this great martial artist. However, when history is forgotten, and rewritten, it’s important to remind a new generation of what came before so that they appreciate the legacy of Ed Parker to the martial art history of the United States.
      Contrary to the accusations leveled at the start of this anti Ed Parker blog, the following documentation is presented to readers curious about who Ed Parker was and not accept these attacks at face value. I submit that Ed Parker was not a liar, he did earn his black belt, paid his bills, and stands alone as the pioneer of kenpo in America of a fighting system that remains a unique and challenging martial art with practitioners all over the world.
      In April 1991, Black Belt magazine published a memorial article on Ed Parker and his history with his photo on the cover. The article was written by Lee Wedlake, and is relayed to the readers again on the chance you don’t have the issue. pg. 21; Wedlake wrote – Parker was 18 when he told his future wife Leilani that he envisioned taking karate around the world.

      He was already a black belt, see Leilani Parker, Memories of Ed Parker, 1997.
      “It has a copy of her husbands’ black belt certificate in it, and that is significant
      since detractors have claimed posthumously that he never had one.”

      and a senior in high school when they met in 1949. She says he trained constantly, seven days a week.
      Wedlake continues–Parker’s study of kenpo was interrupted in 1949 when he left Hawaii to attend Brigham Young University in Provo, UT. He graduated in 1956 in Sociology and minored in Psychology. His schooling was interrupted by the Korean War. Parker enlisted in the Coast Guard and was stationed, oddly enough, in Hawaii for most of his hitch from 1951 to 1954, when he was discharged. He continued his study with William Chow during his service.
      Parker returned to Hawaii in September of 1959 intending to bring William Chow back with him to implement the school expansion plans they had discussed while Parker was in the service. Chow declined, however, and the young instructor would go it alone. (pg. 21)
      Contrary to the accusations at the outset of this blog, Parker was never told to “take a hike” by Professor Chow; his training and association was one of respect. Parker wrote in Infinite Insights Vol 1, pg. 24; “I treasured the time I spent with him and the revelations I obtained from our conversations and workouts. As I look back, I cannot thank him enough for setting me on a path of logical and realistic thinking.”

      John Bishop was a frequent contributor of articles and was the Orange County investigator for the District Attorney’s Office. His article on the history of William K.S. Chow published in Inside Karate, Jan 1990; confirms that Parker innovated and added to his basic understanding. On pg. 29, Bishop wrote, “Over the years, he (Ed Parker) altered and added to Chinese Kenpo until he made a system of his own; this system he called American Kenpo Karate. To this day Parker is still innovating and adding to his kenpo system. His system may be the most widely practiced form of kenpo.”
      On pg. 28 of the same article on Chow, Bishop also has a kenpo lineage illustrated. From Ed Parker you have Ralph Castro founder of Shaolin Kenpo, Joe Dimmick (Sam-Pai Kenpo); Steve Sanders (founder of the BKF); Jim & Al Tracy (Tracy Kenpo); Tino Tuilosega founder of Lima Lama, and David German, founder of T.A.I. Karate. All of whom have their own take on Kenpo and if you wish designate them 10th degree Black Belts. If you think about it, is a ceremonial title that means they are the acknowledged heads of their system.
      In fact, a historical photo published in Inside Kung Fu, 8/1992, pg. 38 shows a group photo of William K.S. Chow and his students over 42 years ago (at the time the photo was published in 1992). Across Chow’s karate jacket typed in the old typewriter style was Chow’s rank 10th Dan, Red/Black. Chow was the acknowledged leader of kenpo.
      Martial Art historian Bruce A. Haines with no axe to grind for kenpo, wrote in his book in 1968, Karate’s History and Traditions on page 38, wrote; “The first documented commercial karate school did not come from a former serviceman. Ed Parker of the Hawaiian Islands appears to have founded, in 1954, what is most likely the first commercially successful karate school in the United States. This took place in Provo, Utah while Parker was obtaining his degree in socioology at Brigham Young University.
      This approach to rank for leaders is nothing new. In Okinawan circles, a man named Tatsuo Shimabuku blended Goju-Ryu and Shorin-Ryu and founded Isshin-Ryu in the 1930’s after studying with Miyagi and Motobu. No one disputes Shimabuku’s rank, he is the acknowledged master of Isshhin-Ryu and 10th Dan in the system. Through Shimabuku, his American lineage includes Don Nagle, Steve Armstrong, Harold Long and others who went onto train still others, and the knowledge is passed down. The same with American Kenpo.
      As to Ed Parker’s skills, good insight is available from an article in Inside Kung Fu, 3/1980 featuring author Joe Hyams who wrote Zen in the Martial Arts; on page 33 of the article Hyams is quoted, “although a big man, Parker’s moves were elegant, precise, incredibly fast and controlled. He had tremendous power. His philosophy then as now was, ‘To hear is to doubt, to see is to be deceived, to feel is to believe.’ He tapped me once or twice lightly, but I was aware that the same blow with full power would be devastating.”

      Long Beach Internationals karate tournament which began in 1964; lasted 35 years. It concluded it’s run in 1999, (Black Belt, 8/2001; “The State of Kenpo a Decade after Ed Parker, by Lee Wedlake, Jr.) If Ed Parker wasn’t paying the arena venue fee, how did it last so long?

      Ed Parker was in fact, a fighter. As attested to by Bill Ryusaki, not a full time kenpo ‘crony’ as some have described Parker students. In the magazine, Karate Illustrated, 10/1976, the article on Bill Ryusaki, Bill met Parker in the parking lot of a local drive-in restaurant. “So then I go to this drive-in and I actually saw him really take care of himself. He was literally piling these guys up and man, I just really got impressed with this guy.”
      As if we need more confirmation, here’s yet another description of Ed Parker by Holzer:
      Inside Kung Fu, 9/1984; pg 51; article by James William Holzer, “Ed Parker: The Streetfighter from Honolulu”
      Parker and Chow were both essentially street fighters who realized that many of the existing kenpo techniques would not work in the street. Parker and Chow desired to Americanize kenpo and bring it to the continental United States…graduating from BYU with a BS degree in sociology…his studies interrupted by a stint in the Coast Guard, receiving his Black Belt from Chow, his only instructor, Parker began his first school in Pasadena, California in 1956.
      Inside Karate, June 1997 pg. 25 Interview with Leilani Parker, the wife of Ed Parker, (Interviewer) “A lot has been said about the Parker system. Everyone wants to be an expert on how it was created. What’s the real story?” (Mrs. Parker): “Everyone makes it more complicated than it really is. He studied under Professor William Chow in Hawaii and learned his base system. After he came to the mainland he developed his own, very comprehensive system, over years of trial and error.”
      As for Paul Vunak, while not a fan of kenpo, and even uses kenpo as an excuse for what not to do, said this in Martial Arts & Combat Sports, 8/2000; article by Paul Vunak, pg. 39; “It is obvious that Bruce Lee and Dan Insosanto were the pioneers of modern martial arts. They understood then, what the world is seeing now – no one art, theology, or philosophy has it all. We can truly see that today’s martial artists are harvesting knowledge from seeds that were planted by Bruce Lee and Dan Inosanto.
      Both individuals, Bruce Lee and Dan Inosanto were influenced in some way either directly trained with Ed Parker or exchanged ideas (Bruce Lee even stayed at Parkers house briefly & sparred Mike Pick– a kenpo student of Ed Parker, Lee lost)
      Indeed, here’s a quote that Dan Inosanto said about Ed Parker from Inside Kung-Fu, Jan, 1981 pg. 26 “…Ed Parker awarded Dan Inosanto with his black belt in kenpo, Danny had come to Parker as a kicking specialist and had worked hard to round out his technique with kenpo hands. That is, until Ed Parker tried to interest him in Kali. “Have you ever seen the art of Escrima, Dan?” Dan looked at the floor. “You mean stick fighting?” he replied, without enthusiasm. “No, Danny there’s more. A lot more.” Parker raised his finger. “You shouldn’t be afraid to look at other arts. It’s always good to add variety to your technique.”
      Even Steve Muhammad, a man Robert Libby respects, was a Parker Black Belt, and this was said of Ed Parker by Mr. Muhammad, Martial Arts & Combat Sports, 7/2002; pg. 36, article by Steve Muhammad; “Master Parker introduced a concept of angles and geometric patterns of movement in kenpo that the BKF expanded upon.” I met Mr. Muhammad, at yet another kenpo seminar and found him to be very informative and open to all us Kenpo cultists.
      Here’s what the late great JT Will said about Ed Parker; from Inside Kung Fu; 6/1980, p. 34 “Ed Parker is the most revered instructor in the history of American Karate. Parker examined Professor Chow’s Kenpo with the eyes of a boxer, and experience of a street fighter. He introduced concepts and principles, still not practiced by other systems.”
      This is what Ed Parker has said about kenpo:
      Karate & Kung Fu Illustrated, 9/1986; article on Ed Parker’s Kenpo Karate, pg. 25 by Loren Franck, “So when I stared to talk with William Chow and listened to what he did to intermix innovations to cope with the type of fighting we find in our environment; that’s what really led me on to develop thoughts, principles, and ideas of my own.”
      Ed Parker on Kenpo from Black Belt, 2/1975, pg 19 “You’ve got to know how to vary things. A lot of the techniques I’ve worked with, they’re ideas, they’re not rules. At any given time, any of my moves can change from defense to offense, offense to defense.”

      Karate Illustrated, 9/1976 Ed Parker on Kenpo, “While it is true that we should adapt a martial art to suit us individually—and we learn to express ourselves freely and blend with the situations as they occur—a firm basis is still needed to learn from.”
      Black Belt, 7/1979 Kenpo Cover Story (Ed Parker on cover), Parker pg. 23—“The secret of the martial arts is not to have knowledge of twenty four things as it is to know four things.” It’s more important to know to learn four moves and the twenty-four was in which you can rearrange them.”

      Lastly, when Black Belt magazine published its premier issue in Vol 1 #1, 1961, Ed Parker was featured and had been teaching kenpo for professionally since 1956. In 1961, Robert Libby was 9 years old.

  187. Narcissim Rears Its Ugly Head

    This guy is probably one of those idiots who thinks Rhonda Rousey can beat a man.

    Even Rorion Gracie says UFC is fake it is no longer based on an arts strategies it is based on who does a technique better,basically the better athlete wins it has nothing to do with real fighting or martial arts.

    Go email him about it he will set you straight.

    Tj Dillashaw is the champ and he is a KARATE point fighter and used the supposed ineffective preemptive strike point fighters develop to throw off Barao and intercepted him.

    \When questioned if Karate was effective TJ said HELL YEAH!!

    A fight gives you an adrenaline dump most TMAs do not teach their students to perform when it happens,that is why they are not as effective as someone who does Boxing,Wrestling or hell even football teaches you to deal with the adrenal dump. So a TMA school that teaches student to handle the adrenal dump I would not try to test them your narcissism will get you hurt.

    Paul Vunak is a fraud who when presented at a seminar with a real punch had the guy “removed” from the seminar because people saw him as a fraud who could not punch and started given this guy all the attention and Paul being a narcissist(there are alot you in this MA world) showed his petty side.

    • I just spent 2 hours looking at Rorion Gracie quotes. Just 7 months ago he talked about how great UFC is and how hard Royce trained to get ready for it. I also can find no such remark by TJ Dillashaw, so send me an address, but I bet you CAN’T. Do you use the same guy as Mills forPR? If you think Vunak is a fraud go take him on, he’ll roll with you

    • my buddy just got off another computer and cannot find one reference to TJ Dillashaw even doing Karate-he went from high school wrestling, to Cal State Fulkerton on a wrestling scholarship, did Greco-Roman, did MEC and spent time in Russia, not one word about Karate of any type. What style, with who, and what point tournaments? Why isn’t there one single reference in his bio, in Sherdog, in Wikipedia, or any other source?

    • Go to http://www.tjdillashaw.com, his own site. It says he was inspired to wrestle by his father; not one single word about Karate. All sites refer to him as a WRESTLER- you are such a pathetic little weasel who has to invent lies. Did you ever hear of Google? You can find anything in seconds

    • Where are some more comments? Once proven a liar people just do not post anymore. Also, MEC is a system that relies on wrestling, Muay Thai, boxing, and BJJ. Dillashaw NEVER DID KARATE!!! You lied, so like a real man would apologize. And if I am wr8ng I will apologize, that is what men do. How are your Legos?

  188. Contact Vunak directly and tell him.
    As for Rousey there are some guys she could best with her skill set.
    The only question is, would Rousey be able to handle a punch from a guy 125-135.
    There have been female vs. male fights before.
    Jackie Tonowanda a tough female boxer called the “female Ali” fought a Thai boxer in a mixed match and beat him easy.
    Beth Bussey a135 lb.karate fighter bit off more than she could chew when she fought 230 lb Joe Hess a point and full contact fighter.
    Poor Beth decided to go toe to toe and got starched.
    So, it’s possible.

    • Thank you Monfongo, and as usual for you a refreshing dose of reality. I have moved with Vunak, and he is for real. And notice this clown gives zero sources. I somehow doubt Ronda bribed people for her silver medal. I have yet to hear a Gracie knock 6FC.

  189. You are completely insane. Vunak is a lot of things, but a fraud is not one of them. I cannot find any such quote by Dillashaw. People that are jealous little dickheads like you love to post lies. They even posted a video “Paul Vunak loses to BJJ blue belt”, but the guy losing was not Paul Vunak. Desperate idiots always post really crazy lies. And yes, Ronda could beat a lot of men. So is her silvet medal in the Olympics fake too? Go play with your Legos and have mommy tuck you in when you get sleepy.

  190. GRACIE VS KIMURA
    youtube.com 3:28
    Check this out for my errant History

    I saw that you were still rambling. Decided to send people a real video of real Helio Gracie really getting beat by Kimura. Funny Chuck Liddell is a Hawaiian (Chinese) Kempo Practitioner, one of the winningest UFC guys of all time.

    His Instructor is good friends with Solomon Kaihewalu. Kaihewalu was Liddell’s instructor who calls Parker a friend and Brudda. But I won’t bother you with errant truths matter a man stuck in quicksand flails about until he is gone.

    I was just hoping to bring you out of your feud with a dead man. I am just sad, because when there are bigger things going on in the world you choose to fight this unwinable never ending battle with the dead you seem to hold a grudge against from many years ago. Thank you and I will say no more.

  191. Gee Eric that was once again ERRANT!!! Chuck Liddel DOES NOT USE KEMPO IN MMA! And I never said that a Gracie has never beaten. Chuck uses boxing, Muay Thai, BBJ with a great takedown defense.
    As to dead guys, you keep ignoring the fact that I CHOSE HIM OFF WHILE HE WAS ALIVE! And what can be gained is preventing real live people today from getting hurt by completely errant teaching. Kenpo knife defense, blocking tactics and methods, and striking methods can cause person serious injuries. They are untested theories and therefore dangerous. And just because Chuck Liddel hits a guy with a hammer fist while in the mount does not make it a Kempo based fight, nor him using Kempo in the ring. You just keep throwing in the same old or dead guys. So show me some real analysis or fight concepts. The problem is you do not know any. The next videos will be the errant strikes of many MA styles, classic mistakes most MA styles make, and really dangerous knife defense techniques. If you watch you could actually learn something.
    And the real driving force here is not my non-existent with Ed Parker, but rather MA beginners being made aware of some different methods, and how many McDojos and frauds are out there.

  192. Please look up a guy named Bart Vale. A Kenpo black belt that can fight. Why? Because he shows the weaknesses oF Ed Parker’s Kenpo. He fought MMA and was a bad ass. I am paraphrasing here, but he said Parker has all these guys following him, but Parker never had a fight in his life, so how can he teach people how to fight? He shows how the EPAK grab techniques are BULLSHIT. And if you watch him fight he uses boxing, muay thai, bjj, and wrestling, NO KENPO.
    I also see that people like Steve Shaffer, Mills, and narcissism no longer comment. Is that because they were shown through videos to be fools? Or that they made up idiotic stories? Or a combination of both.
    Bart Vale shows everything I am trying to do, to improve the street skills of people, and to stop following idiotic cult figures that are BULLSHIT.

    • Bart Vale response. Ok Robert Libby, I’m still here…
      I had the honor of meeting Bart Vale at a dare I say it? At a KENPO weekend seminar in South Florida hosted by Sean Kelley of Palm Bch. Bart Vale is a beast no question about it. He was polite and shared a number of entries and finishing moves to the attendees. As you have pointed out Bart Vale has a kenpo background, and it’s primarily the Tracy Kenpo lineage. But contrary to what you have written, if Kenpo sucked so much why did Bart Vale stick around to get his Black Belt under the Tracys? In fact, in Al Tracy’s newsletter in 1992 he talked up Bart in his 1st Quarter ’92 publication called “Tracy System Newsflash” If Bart was so pissed at Kenpo, why would Al Tracy devote any ink at all to promoting his Shoot Fighting fights and videos? Truth is, Al Tracy is proud of Bart Vale and his association with his Tracy Kenpo background.
      Another fact is there are several photos of Bart standing beside Ed Parker published in the martial art magazines. Again, why would Bart bother to waste his time being near Ed Parker if there was such a disdain for kenpo? In my mind Bart simply moved on to the full contact fight game, made lots of money, and now teaches others. It’s an evolution of fighting prowess.
      As for your constant criticism regarding strikes, if someone is using a hammerfist in the ring, you scream “That’s not Kenpo”, the same could be said of your hero Paul Vunak. If he uses a rising upper cut from the outside of an attackers extended arm, to break his elbow , (Cover photo of Inside Karate 5/91 by the way) I could easily say, “That’s not JKD”, Kenpo has that same move dude (called Reversing Mace). And yes kenpo has hammer fists too. Just because the sequence is not in line with a set curriculum of techniques, doesn’t disqualify the moves from being kenpo. A fight is a fight. I’ll do what I have to get the job done.
      Your videos seek to point out flaws in base movements. Here’s a brief kenpo refresher lesson for you. That’s the ideal phase. Your basic premise is how to improve the technique ideal phase as it’s presented to a student by immediately jumping to the what if. Of course there’s going to be instances where things go wrong. And yes, kenpo people (if they’re taught properly) dive into the what if phase as they progress in the system. Then they move on to the spontaneous phase as they advance. I suspect you already know this and are chuckling as you read this. (Pssst, the advanced techniques for the higher ranks are what if options, but don’t tell anyone) I’ll continue…
      Your video of Triggered Salute is a straw man argument. At any time if I need too, depending on the action of the attacker, can stop what I’m doing and flow into something else. I’m not bound by any 1-2-3-4 sequence of a technique. I could just as easily drive the pinned arm down, and strike the jaw with the inward elbow. I don’t need to go to the ribs at all. And I could stop, release the pinned arm, and kick the attacker, or knee him. You did a head butt. Congrats, you’ve just applied a kenpo principle of using your whole body as a weapon in a close range situation. Wait,… you keep saying you don’t do kenpo, my bad.
      In Parker’s book Infinite Insights, Vol 5. pg. 3, he writes, “Every student needs a strong basis of ideas founded upon realistic concepts and principles. Implanting various ideas in the form of situational techniques teaches a student to conceptualize these ideas as random references that can be activated spontaneously. However, the worth of these ideas is contingent upon the student’s ability to absorb, comprehend, express, alter, exchange, and apply them in combat.” This is the learning process, that everyone goes through using the model is crawl-walk-run. You want to skip crawling, and start running. I’m happy to help a student run, but basics are first. And yes punches originate from the feet, a good base is key to any punching sequence. I’ve trained in Shotokan and know that my punching power is dependent on being rooted to mother earth. Watch the punches of Mike Tyson on YouTube, Scary! But one could jump and leap and do a superman flying punch, very cool to see in the ring. So there’s always exceptions.
      The techniques are simply a starting point to help a student gain combat knowledge and grow in the skill of kenpo. I remind students all the time, that if something goes wrong adapt, find another answer, break away, do whatever, but don’t stop the action. This requires time, the willingness to learn and ultimately trains people to think, and not be robots stuck with a move that fails. I believe we’re on the same page here, the problem is instruction, not the technique. We as instructors need to know the options, we need to cross train and have a grasp of the what if phase.
      Your criticism of Clutching Feathers is valid only if I fail to move when I’m being grabbed. Even if I’m pulled down (the attacker is cancelling my height zone); I have options to help resolve the problem. I’d like to reverse this scenario and determine why I allowed the attacker to get close enough to grab what little hair I do have? Here’s a hint, it’s not about a hair grab! It’s just another line of attack that you’re being taught to consider. The handwork of Clutching Feathers, if you care to think about it, it’s nothing more than a Jab-Cross Combo from God Forbid,…boxing!!! If the attacker’s arm is lower at your chest the same move becomes Lone Kimono, if the arm is bent, (and we’re nearly kissing); he’s getting punched and kicked at the same time. (Conquering Shield)
      Again, I’m not bound by a set sequence of technique. I simply react to the situation. If needed, I can reverse the moves of Clutching Feathers to strike with the left palm heel as the first, then middle knuckle strike, I don’t even need to use the middle knuckle strike. I could even kick or knee. Or, if I’m being pulled over, change my strike to an uppercut hopefully before he hits me.
      Well, that’s my response, and I did it without insulting you, well, I did call you a dude, sorry.
      Your turn.

      • Please go to youtube and watch Bart Vale in “the roots of Chinese Kenpo vs American Kenpo.” In it Mr. Vale states that Ed Parker never fought, so how can he teach fighting? He also states that Ed Parker “took out a lot of the good stuff and watered it down.” I have never met Mr. Vale, but he sure seems to know what he is talking about. In a video he also shows 3 Kenpo grab techniques and shows how unrealistic they. So we have Bart Vale-shoot fighter, MMA fighter, and beat Ken Shamrock. Here he is saying that Ed Parker deals in theory, not reality, and that Ed never fought. But I am sure Steve Shaffer and others will find a way to rationalize what Mr. Vale has said.

  193. So why does Bart Vale in a vidoeo show 3 Kenpo grab techniques and keep saying this is theory , the Kenpo way, and this is reality? Why does he say Parker has all these guys following him, but he has nevrr had a fight, do he can’t teach fighting. Your anaoysis is so flawed on so many levels. And I never said Bart Vale was “pissed at Kenpo”, I merely stated that he showed the flaws. Joe Lewis also fought under the Tracy banner, but never did Kenpo.
    Your analysis on Vunak is idiotic. We attack arms a lot, but we never think they just magically straighten out. You have to work and set it up. I attack hands and arms all the time when I teach. And to say Clutching Feathers is a boxing combo shows how little you inow about fighting. All you do is throw terms around and always make idiotic analogies to ridiculous concepts. Reversing Mace is a silly technique, and the back knuckle to the ribs is meaningless. And when you do the techniq6e the person does a step through reverse punch and stands there while you beat him up-it is called “dead training.” Vunak calls it dissecting a corpse, but I call it mannequin fighting.
    You say crawl, walk, run. But the guy you do the technique on does not move, so there is no running going on.
    To sum it up, anybody who can compare Kenpo to real boxing ot JKD is truly an idiot. But do not believe me, watch and listen to what Bart Vale says, his words and actions refute everything you are saying.

  194. Your arguments mixed with fact fiction. As to your arguments how you just flow from one bad technique to another are pure fantast, and your analysis of what I said about Triggered Salute is ridiculous.
    As to Bruce and Ed, just because Bruce stayed at his house does not mean he influenced him. As to Ed telling Dan Inosanto to look at other martial arts, that is completely accurate. And after looking Dan Inosanto left.
    As to the othrr articles and history, many of the writers were working off of established myths and lies.
    So please look at Bart Vale on the roots of Chinese Kenpo. He states Parker never had a fight and watered down Chinese Kenpo.
    So let’s say I come to your school, no malice or grudges, and I will grab you for real ans see how effective your techniques are? Let’s see if you can flow fron technique to technique. And I will neither kick nor punch. How about it tough guy?

    • Libby,
      I’ve finally figured you out. You’re right! Kenpo does suck, at least the way you do it. Your latest video on Clutching Feathers and knife ideas sprinkled with a little Obscure Claws showed me that you are totally missing the point of kenpo movement.
      Then, you amp up your moves on Garfield to show what you would really do, clean sharp strikes with a mixture of limb destruction–all designed to end the altercation, which is the point of kenpo!!! If you would apply your combat principles to the kenpo moves you’d have it. But instead you violate nearly all the rules of combat by sticking your left elbow out in a lame attempt at proving Clutching Feathers as a silly and flawed technique. No! drop your elbow and counter grab the attacker’s hand on your head which covers your face as you torque into the right middle knuckle strike before he pulls you down into his punch. There’s many possible variations, but that’s just one.
      Yes, I agree. The way you lamely attempted to do Clutching Feathers isn’t even close to boxing. There’s no settling, no turning of the shoulders, no momentum, nothing. So yes, you’re right, I apologize. I assumed you were doing Clutching Feathers my way which employs combat principles of torque, momentum, power, balance and timing. All of which are found in boxing. It’s just an extended lead, followed by a rear hand, very similar to a jab-cross combo but only if you move combatively.
      I was pleased with your strikes you turned on to show the way you fight. You showed you have power and a quickness that few at your age have. Pitty you have some weird disconnect with kenpo ideas. You gotta get some better instruction man. Lesson Two: The structured kenpo techniques with names such as Clutching Feathers, is a teaching tool to show a principle of fighting. The names are memory foot notes, but as one progresses, you let go of the structure and flow spontaneously based on the situation. You should have known this ages ago. Somehow you got into a rut, or missed out on a key lesson, but your kenpo sucks. However, you’re JKD is strong, Be strong in whatever happens. Throw the kenpo names out, at some point you should have graduated beyond ‘painting by the numbers’ but I guess not. Don’t box others into that world.
      Agreed! avoid hitting the back of the head with knuckles, I tend to use my forearm, when I circle my right arm over and through, all this move accomplishes is to bump the attacker’s head down as my left is rising up to create a whip lash effect which exposes the neck for the last handsword to the carotid artery. But not all of that may work, that’s OK, I have other options at my disposal. If I want to keep the shoulder/arm lock wrapped up, then I’m free to do so, or just wrench it out of the socket if need be. Fight over.
      You bring up flawed training of kenpoists who like to rip through moves, while their partner stands there. HUK Planas called it the ‘stone statue’ syndrome. He taught against that and encouraged realistic reactions to hits by partners to me over 22 years ago man, and if they don’t move, move them yourself.
      The knife section is spot on. Distance is your friend, throw the wallet in one direction while you take the other. If you can’t run, and there’s an attack, the rule I teach is divert and seize the weapon. Hopefully the strikes and limb destructions cause the weapon to drop, then you’re back to empty hand fighting. Personally, for me the attacker may lose an eye, I’ll go nuclear with a spear hand and hopefully get that in to stop the attack.
      You should have stuck it out with Mr. Parker, you were on the cusp of greatness. His kenpo evolved and is still evolving, yet you have this jaded view that techniques are somehow written in stone that can never have any other application. In all my magazine collections, i don’t recall there ever being a letter to the editor or article anywhere from you exposing Ed Parker as a fraud, or dissecting his kenpo, nothing. Why now?
      As to your video — I’ll give it a C- nice try, but it did have good advice on knives and how dangerous they can be. Oh and those sharp moves on what to do after knocking away the knife: They’re partially found in Defying The Storm, and Delayed Sword both of which are found in the standard kenpo curriculum. Arggghhh! your head’s gotta be exploding man.

  195. Okay Steve now I know you are insane. In all your stories by pseudo martial artists like Hyams, you state that Bruce Lee was a Kenpo student of Ed Parker’s, sparred with him and LOST! BULLSHIT. Whoever made up that horseshit is a liar. Joe Lewis sparred with Bruce Lee and could not touch him. You are NUTS!
    So how about I stop by? I will even take my meds. I will video tape it, I will put grabs on you, and I will not knee, punch, kick, elbow, bite, or headbutt. I will just resist.
    To show you how nuts Kenpo people are a guy from Charm City Karate is fat mouthing because he may have beaten a 14 year old BJJ kid- what a stud.

  196. Mr. Libby,
    I wrote that it was Mike Pick that sparred Bruce Lee.

    • Roundtrip from Dallas to Tallahassee is $373 on Orbitz-put up or shut up. I am 63, I limp, I have had over 12 orthopaedic surgeries, was told by the team surgeon of the then LA Raiders I should be dead, and was called a “high functioning cripple.” And I can easiky defeat every grab technique you throw at me. So where are your balls? Let’s do this. You are younger, a 4th. degree EPAK black belt. Let’s see your stuff up close and personal.

  197. Still a lie. And a lie that Ed Parker grabbed Bruce’s foot while sparring and dumped Bruce 8n his back had also been told. So who beat Bruce, Ed, Mike Pick, or both?
    So why no comments on what Bart Vale said about Ed and demonstrated about theory vs reality?
    Just because clutching feathers has a 1-2 beat does not make it boxing. That shows how little you know about fighting. Your allegstion that you can merely flow from technique to techniwue is valid, if the opponent stands there like a mannequin.
    So let’s put the keyboard down- same offer, me against you. I’ll put on the grab and you do the technique. Then let’s see how well you flow from technique to technique. I’m in Dallas first week in April. Give me a date.

  198. About Ed Parker About Robert Libby
    1952 a student of William K.S. Chow and in the Coast Guard Robert Libby was Born
    1954 Teaching in Utah Libby still in diapers
    1955 Teaching Karate to Utah State Police Libby learns to walk
    1956 Opens Karate School in Pasadena Libby begins Kindergarten
    1960 Publishes 1st Book on Kenpo Karate “Law of the Fist” Libby in elementary School
    1961 Vol 1 #1 of Black Belt Magazine features Ed Parker Libby practices his alphabet
    1963 Publishes 2nd Book on Karate “Secrets of Chinese Karate” Libby celebrates his 11th Birthday
    1964 Establishes the Long Beach International Karate Tournament Libby learns to ride a bike
    and helps launches Bruce Lee’s career
    1966 Under Ed Parker Enterprises, sells training equipment Libby starts karate lessons
    1967 Ed Parker on TV “Lucy Show” does all the techniques and falls Libby promoted to Orange Belt
    1968 Ed Parker publishes Women’s Guide to Self Defense Libby promoted to Green Belt
    1975 Ed Parker publishes “Guide to Nunchaku” Libby is what…where? I dunno.
    1976 Ed Parker in Pink Panther movies
    1978 Ed Parker publishes “Inside Elvis” Libby hospitalized after altercation
    1982-87 Ed Parker Publishes Infinite Insights, Vol 1,2,3, 4,5 Libby become a bouncer in bars
    1988 Ed Parker honored with a massive tribute by friends and
    other notable martial artists Libby moves to Thailand is knifed,
    beat up, kicked, hospitalized, and
    becomes disabled and limps
    1990 Ed Parker dies doing what he loved Libby develops a profound bi-polar
    disorder, and must remain on meds.

    In April 1993 published an article comparing JKD to Ed Parker’s Kenpo. Free flowing approach vs. structured learning. The writer Chad Bailey looked the pros and cons of both approaches to self-defense training. He concluded that both paths have drawbacks, JKD lacking strong basics, and EPAK being closed minded to creative applications. But he also concluded that both paths allow the student to achieve spontaneous level of performance. The ultimate goal is spontaneous reaction and develop their ability to innovate and create within their art.
    In 1991, Inside Karate featured Paul Vunak on the cover, the photo shows Vunak uppercutting the partners straighten arm at the elbow (while grabbing/pulling). Libby claims incorrectly that this is not Reversing Mace, yet if you take the time to unpackage the technique, eliminate the dreaded back knuckle to the ribs and modify it to a arm grab, it’s really the same thing. It’s the same thing. In fact, in the second issue of Black Belt, Jan 1962, Ed Parker is again featured as the instructor of actor McDonald Carey. There’s a photo of Ed Parker, grabbing Mr. Carey’s arm at the wrist, with his other arm up in a claw, but on the outside of the arm, not from underneath; using a different line for the pin/break. Very similar to the Vunak photo 31 years later.
    The article continues with photos of a punching sequence, which is a little baffling ’cause I thought punches to the head were a bad idea, but if Vunak uses them, it must be OK, then photo 5 of the moves show Vunak in a cross step, which if I recall a few posts ago, Libby criticized as a terrible maneuver since he referred me and others to his Australian kung-fu blog friend that showed the flaws in cross overs, but there’s Libby’s hero Vunak actually doing cross overs.
    So the punching sequence is this: Fake low, to draw the attackers guard down, then a right jab face, followed by a cross, then a third punch with the right, and end with a left inward elbow. This timing is just like Five Swords in Kenpo. Instead of a defensive move, 5 swords becomes offensive, with jab, cross, and change the uppercut to another jab, step in and left elbow. Five swords is a pattern of movement, that at anytime, can be altered, moves deleted, timing changed and other moves added. Vunak is great, no doubt, but at what point, if one practices this series of strikes, does that not become a ingrained pattern of strikes much like what Libby lambastes practitioners of kenpo who practice the moves of kenpo sequences? To get good at anything, takes practice. Learning to move spontaneously means to think and adjust moves based on the situation and how the attacker responds to strikes. Hopefully, the fight is over quickly, and you get to go home, and the attacker is in the hospital.

  199. 1950s, Ed Parker rips off Jimmy Woo’s book and publishes it as his own. Ed Parker also dons a black belt that he most likely never earned. Ed Parker spreads a lie abot beating 5 sailors armed with clubs and knives in 7 seconds. Wanna keep going Steve? Ed Parker is a member of a religion that believes black people are descended from demons and cursed by God. One of Ed’s main religious figures, Brigham Young, stated that people live on the sun, and people live on the moon that are of relative height at 6 feet and dress like quakers- they have been seen with our telescopes. And that was long before Ed Parker was alive.
    Robert Libby, born 1952- 56 years experience, respected martial arts EXPERT, numerous street fights protecting the smaller, weaker, and females.
    Steve Shaffer- a poser that would wet his gi if he ever went up against some of the odds I have gone against. Like Ed “the poser” Parker, an unproven fighter with little if any skills about real fighting. A dummy that knows so little he thinks clutching feathers is a boxing technique
    Steve, if you want to try and say that I don’t know what I am talking about put up or shut up. I use crossovers, but sometimes they are a bad idea. You take one little martial move without any explanation as to how it got there or was set up and say I do not know what I am doing.
    But what’s really got your goat is that you’ve been called on your bullshit system and you are just an intellectual coward and a chickenshit

  200. One last thought before I go to sleep. I love how you present things, lots of meaningless history, and much of it lies. But you never answer the main question, instead you talk around it.
    So answer a really simple question- was my quote from Bart Vale write or wrong? Just like Mills’ allegations I proved them to be false. You will never take a direct question directly because the truth scares you.
    I also love, how like most fake martial artists, you always make references to the hospital or the morgue. Your fight knowledge, like your mentor, is nonexistent.

  201. 2 more comments- as to 5 swords it becomes “an ingrained pattern of movements” when they are done against A MOVING AGGRESSOR, NOT A MANNEQUIN.
    You referred to Ed’s book on the nunchakus. After Bruce Lee popularized them, nunchakus become a fad. The gang members were using them and in California carrying nunchakus was a felony; carrying a gun was a misdemeanor. So Ed saw a chance to make a buck. The schools carried their own Ed Parker nunchakus. ED WOULDN’T HAVE KNOWN A NUNCHAKU FROM A TENNIS RACKET! He merely jumped on the bandwagon, copied all sorts of nunchaku info, and presto, he’s a nunchaku expert. TYPICAL ED PARKER SCAM. He always stole from others and took the credit.
    Please show me one clip or still photo of Ed with nunchakus prior to Bruce using them.

  202. Bart Vale: “Kenpo is and always will be (I hope) a street defense system and not a sport. In the street people have guns, knives, clubs and whatever they can get their hands on. Every UFC fight has one thing in common that the street does not have…a referee! I trained with Mr. Parker, Mr. Parker was a black belt in Judo and he did not want to add Judo to his self defense. He loved the shoot fighting system and I wouls show him many of the techniques I was learning in Japan. And again it was an awesome sport.
    Then one day at an instructors camp I was able to do a front cross face, everyone in the class thought it was great. Then Mr. Parker showed us why we did not want to pull the opponent in to us. So Mr. Parker had me do the same move on him, and as I pull him in to me he pulled out a wooden knife and cut me inside the leg.
    And that is why I don’t do shoot fighting as a self defense, I do Chinese Kenpo for self defense.”
    He states in the video how some instructors have watered down the system to 56 techniques and that’s why he doesn’t like the American Kenpo. When Parker taught it there was still 154 techs. That is the same Kenpo he trains in. Lines of attack are different but the techs are still the same. There are still plenty of instructors that still teach the full curriculum.

  203. Okay, but I do not know where you are going or what your point is. Please put in “martial and cults.” I am not saying this in the Christian way, but in that martial arts, like many religions, can prove nothing. You people always dance around basic issues. You also forget the MONEY FACTOR. THERE IS A LOT OF MONEY ON THE TABLE, SO THEY DO NOT USE CRITICAL THINKING AS IT CAN HURT THE MONEY TRAIN. 90% of all kicking and punching martial arts are BULLSHIT. They have little if any real street application. And martial arts people lie constantly. For example one guy on this thread said tj dillishaw said “karate, hell yeah.” That seems to be a lie as neither me nor my friend can find one reference to him doing Karate. They claim Bill Ryusaki said “he (Pareker) was stacking up the bodies.” We have this group in LA called the POLICE, there would have been an investigation and reports, yet none exist. One of my female students was terr7fied 8f me. So I left and came back in as I forgot my car keys. She was alone w7th me and I asked her why she was afraid 8f me. She told me hos she “knew” I had killed a guy with a samurai sword. I started laughing and asked heh ” when is the last time you saw a guy in LA carrying a samurai sword?” But she believed it as it came from higher belts. They also told her I was a samurai. So I was a ca6casian Jewish samurai. Got the point?

  204. So why does Bart Vale have a piece on youtube about Chinese vs American Kenpo and refer to AK as watered down and Ed never had a fight? Perhaps later a Bart realized the truth.

  205. Some of u high ranked kenpo guys continue to argue with Robert Libby.
    Mr. Shaffer you were challenged but failed to respond.
    Most if not all of Bart Valle success in cage fights was due in part to size, strength, athleticism.
    He was, and still is a monster.
    He’s also an accomplished Martial Artist.
    Robert Libby knows what he’s talking about.
    Face the facts kenpoists.
    Ed Parker backed out of the Savage fight, just like he did when Robert called him out.
    It doesn’t detract from the work Parker did to promote AK.
    Is there any footage of Parker even sparring?
    Would love to see it.
    Kenpo is nice to see in the dojo, but depending on it for self defense could be a huge mistake.
    All u Parker followers find me video of him sparring.
    Dig it up so we can at least say he had good gym sparring skills.
    That will put some of us in our place once and for all!!

  206. Sorry Steve, but as my gi wasn’t popping and I was not making my own sound effects it probably did not impress. And the two techniques you mentioned do not have elbow to biceps destructions followed by an arm wrench.
    No, my head is not exploding because there are so many fine points ro real combat that Kenpo could never possibly understand as Kenpo people do not really fight. With your ridiculous ideas taken fron index cards and manuals that were written only to make money your brain is to crammed with pro forma bullshit.
    Monfongo just brought up a couple of good points, and thanks for the support Monfongo. I am showing videos made with a kid who knows nothing. Others wanted to do it but I said no. But you admitted my JJD looked strong. So where is one video of Ed Parker even looking like a competent green belt, and in the prime of life? On the dandjurdjevic.blogspot he looks atrocious at 32, snd wearing a black belt.
    Of all the EPAK people you mentioned not one video exists of them doing anything but forms, meaningless, and techniques on inanimate people, a waste of time, or non-contact light contact sparring, which instills bad habits.
    Other than Bart Vale, who I hear nothing but great things about, EPAK has zero champions in real combat. All I hear about are fabricatations by cult followers.
    So to the basic questions again- now when will you or other Parker people show a video of Ed looking good? I have shown videos. What about the questions I asked about comments made that Ed never fought? And where did Ed learn nunchakus well enough to write a book.
    You keep asserting that you can jusy instantly flow from technique to another as you do the motions so much, and that is pure crap and a key component of cult mindsets.
    So here we are again- Tallahasse, FL, me and you. I will put the grabs on. I will not kick, punch, bite, eye gouge, elbow, knee, or headbutt. Let’s see how well you flow from move to move! Let’s see how well you do with a real aggressor actually grabbing, resisting, moving, and not cooperating?
    Monfongo, maybe you could pop over and man the video part?
    Put up or shut up. I will sign any necessary waivers, and we will agree to no lawsuits. I am in Dallas first week in April, 4 hours away.

  207. I just read some more of this inane banter. Steve, I am just showing basic flaws, and you do not get the fact that on Clutching Feathers all the “settling” in the world MEANS NOTHING- NOBODY GRABS THE HAIR THAT WAY, STEPPING BACK DOES NOT STRAIGHTEN THE ARM!!!!! You cannot see the forest for the trees. You are debating step 4 or 5 when step 1 is BULLSHIT. Clutching Feathers will get you FUCKING KILLED!!!!! Like I showed in Obscure Claws, why do you release the arm crank and use a weak meaningless backfist to the body? BEcause somebody told you to.
    This will be my last response to you because like all cult members you just become borong.
    I want one post from you, and that is :yes or nor to first week or second week in April.”

    • Libby,
      As I said before, yes the way YOU do Clutching Feathers will get your face rearranged. For God’s sakes, drop your elbow as a cover man. If you don’t want to step back, then DON’T!!!, At a basic level, Clutching Feathers teaches, if someone grabs you, hit him! Your mechanics is demonstrating what you think is kenpo was so bad, it was a joke.
      No, I’m not going to Dallas, but you’re welcome to stop in and say hello to Rick Fowler, or Brian Duffy. Great guys with a strong background in…KENPO!
      Obscure Claws teaches, how to set a shoulder lock. Again, (I’m growing weary repeating myself) if you want to keep the attacker locked then keep him.. I’m not bound by what a tech says I should do for the sake of completing some pre-determined set of steps. The situation determines my response. If I do choose to release the arm lock I could slice through the ribs, but that’s not the main point, its’ the circling up and over to bump the attacker’s head down, while striking up, to create the opening for the finishing move of the hand sword to the throat. You also did not step forward which helps set the lock and keep him busy with pain. But you’re free to not step forward.
      You shoot off your mouth that I’m a cultist. No, I’m loyal to a system. I’ve also cross trained in BJJ (Gracies Charlotte 1995) boxing with Steve Shepard (at Kelley’s kenpo camp) been on the mat with Benny Urquidez (Las Vegas), which incidentally was a camp organized by Jeff Speakman. Great times.
      Any other questions you have on kenpo techniques? I’m happy to help you understand them better it’s clear from your so-called kenpo videos that you doing the moves totally wrong, void of any proper mechanics, power principles, basic fighting strategies, and common sense. I mean really? Keeping your elbow flared out into left field? You deserve to get your nose broken. Clutching Feathers is a beginning ORANGE belt technique design to teach a basic set of moves using 1-2-3 timing against a hair grab. In the ideal phase the attacker does stand still so you can practice your MECHANICS. Then you progress to a more dynamic level where the attacker is more aggressive, then you add what if scenarios. Then you move to a the fluid level of not even letting the attacker grab you. It’s called the learning process. I see that you know this with all your skills, ’cause I see that you move well within your JKD responses on Garfield. But why does your skills suddenly disappear when you do your so-called kenpo? Have you not learned anything? Turn those shoulders, pop that lead hand into the armpit better, bend your knees a little, be combative, and move effectively and don’t let the guy even grab you. That’s the running phase. Progressive action to beat an attack.
      Post some more of your poor kenpo I feel compelled to help you get better.

  208. Robert,
    If he accepts, I will be there.
    April works perfect for me.
    This Parker thing has created momentum.
    Tailor made for a movie script or book.
    What really got me PO’D was what they did to Milo.
    Making him wear a gi top, Parker getting Gene to take his place.
    What these Kenpo “talkers” don’t realize was that in retirement Milo helped quite a few Martial Artists hone their punching/boxing skills.
    In all my dealings with Milo not once did he ever bad mouth any Martial Artist or Art.
    Till the day he passed on he believed that he was “set up”.
    According to him, he didn’t want to wear a gi.
    Maybe the outcome would have been different, maybe not.
    Milo was past his prime when this took place but still had enough left to have done way better if he did not have to wear the gi.
    Then you have guys like Mills talking about Parker’s “backyard” boxing skills like that would have allowed him to stand with even a PAL novice.
    Unfortunately, most of the Kenpo community does not take criticism too well.
    And when taken to task, they disappear like that Squibb character, and others here who have and continue to bad mouth you for pointing what real street defense is all about.
    So far not one of these “talk posters” has “stepped up”.
    I have my doubts that Steve will either, but if he does I will be there.

    • Monfongo, to begin with I have to thank you for the support and respect. I must also thank you for your generous offer to cover my back. But as you predicted a 4th. degree Ed Parker black belt refuses to meet up with me. And even though I was willing to not use any striking techniques, he tried to pawn me off to Rick Fowler, who I have never had any contact with, or Brian Duffy who I have also never had any contact with. Steve Shaffer has truly shown that not only is he a coward and liar, but a man with zero honor. Who is he to throw me at either Mr. Fowler or Mr. Duffy? Did he ever even ask them?
      Also, where are any videos of Ed Parker? Everybody ragged me about vidoes. I produced them, but where are theirs of the “Honoluku streetfighter?” Probably safe with Mills Crenshaw and Ed Parker’s photoshopped black belt certificate.
      In the old days we would have always accepted a challenge. And in losing we would accept defeat and consider it as a learning experience, and in winning been gracious. But todays post 1970s breed of EPAK Kenpo pussies honor means nothing. In their sanutized McDojos where because they endure a slight contact from a hand or foot and think they are bad asses, or know tons of meaningless terminology and think they are masters, but fold like a graham cracker even at a severely limited challenge. A challenge where all odds have been put in their favor is too terrifying for them.
      But running their big mouths, insulting vastly superior martial artists, and avoiding basic questions with tons of meaningless jargon shows what warriors they are. That punks that have never had a real fight in their life or experienced true combat can show such ignorance and arrogance shows what pathetic martial artists the Parker lineage has produced.
      In closing Monfongo, thanks once again for the support and friendship. I hope we can stay in touch and meet some day. And one more thought- we just learned that our daughter placed in the top 10% in her nursing exams, so I guess holding of on the videos to help her with anatomy and physilology was worth it.

  209. Hey Steve give me a date. I do not know the two guys you mentioned. Is this like when Ed had Lelani call me to chicken out? I don’t want a substitute, but you. I will do the grabs for real. Then let’s see what a 4th. dan Kejpo MASTER named Eteve Shaffer can do. Let’s start with clutching feathers and see what you can do. You have just shown that all your talk is bullshit from a coward and poser named Steve Shaffer who just runs his mouth. PLEASE, show me how I do not know kenpo. PLEASE show me why I got a C- from a punk who knows nothing.
    Where are thr videos of Ed Parker looking GREAT? None exist except those where he looks like an inept douche bag.
    I am a 63 year-old cripple snd the best you can do is pass me off. God you are a worthless coward.

  210. Libby,
    You’re beginning to wear me out. You sound oh so high and mighty, while sprinkling in insults, trying to goad me, what are you, like 15 years old? Yep, your ways gotta be out of the old days, like old western shootout or something, who still challenges people? Give it a rest. Remember the kenpo creed? “…but should I be forced to defend myself…” I’m not doing anything except if I have too. Huge difference there sparky.
    You know what? I’m gonna post a counter video of how silly your Clutching Feathers is. For someone who supposed to have all this fighting knowledge and experience, your mechanics are lacking.
    Have a great weekend. Remember to take your meds.

  211. It is so hypocritical how the Ed Parker cult followers worship Ed’s “gunslinger attitude”, the “Honolulu streetfighter”, how Bil Ryusaki talks about “Ed “piling up the bodies” (which is a lie),but when I put all the odds in your favor to a real challenge, and you scream and bitch like a frightened little school girl that I “need “meds.” And as you said “what are you, 15?” At 15 I would have stepped up.
    Any video you do is meaningless as it is, as always, against an inanimate partner playing along with you. And the pseudo martial artist showing will be Steve Shaffer, a coward and punk who wouldn’t stand up for his pseudo martial art even with all the advantages being given to him.
    You have truly proven all my points as to low Kenpo standards are, to what punks the vast majority of EPAK black belts are, and ss to how little faith you have in your McDojo.

  212. Mr Libby,
    Please post a video were you are fighting.

  213. Jim, I am 63. I collect Social Security. Everybody bitched about me not posting videos, and when I did they still bitched, and lied. But if you would please explain what type of video you want? Do you want boxing, weapons, ground game, JKD, takedowns, or street tactics? I am able to do all the aforementioned. If you want me to say have an MMA fight with somebody that will not happen. I have suffered enough crippling injuries. As I previously stated, the team doctor for the then LA Raiders told me I was more fucked up than anybody on the Raiders. But if you have a specific request I will honor it.

  214. Jim, I believe you had made a rather snide remark towards to me. If you are looking for some form of proof as to what I claim refer to Joe Rogan. 4 time Massachusetts Tae Kwan Do champion, and as a lightweight defeated the midfle-weight and heavyweight champions to be the Grand Champion. He said, in regard to Tae Kwan Do, “I learned how to do something really stupid really well.” To answer your prior snide remark- yes TKD SUCKS. Almost all karate type and kung fu systems are crap. The best systems of the traditional systems are BJJ, judo, muay Thai, bando boxing, panantukan and pananjakman, and kali. Most systems like traditional karate are far too antiquated, and some aspects that they teach are irresponsible, in particular knife fighting. I have dealt with blades 4 times. I was cut once, stabbed once, and twice unscathed.
    But if you have a specific request I will try to honor it, and in doing so show far greater respect than you showed to me.

  215. Open hands guard, Karate style blocks, cross-over cross-outs, rebounding (self-slapping), unrealistic techniques, forms / sets, and “too deadly” to practice: A brief time in a MMA gym shows everyone who tries them how useless they are on a resisting opponent.

    American Kenpo is an academic exercise devoid of real applications. Mills Crenshaw’s belief that he can rip the eyes out of a grappler, break his neck with a chop, then open his femoral artery with a bite show how lack of practice in a resisting opponent lead to delusional thinking. See any of the “Gracie in Action” tapes. Link here goo.gl/oz9qzZ

    Parker’s Kenpo is like pro wrestling: It can look pretty cool with a partner who’s in on the act, but falls short if he won’t cooperate.

    Mr. Libby, your critiques are worth developing into a magazine article, not least because of your history running one of Parker’s schools. If Black Belt has the spine to print it, it would be great to show the techniques as they are written – say Clutching Feathers or Twin Kimono – then what will actually happen when a Kenpoist tries to use them in a real altercation.

    A more “professional” series of videos would be nice too, though I realize that would take a lot of time.

  216. former kenpo… another comment by a disgruntled player,, i ve used kenpo on th street,, was it the ideal phase?? no it was tailored,, but it did infact work and sent my attacker to the hospital.. im one of many who could and can attest to the street effectiveness of the art maybe you didnt learn hwo to talior to to the street,, dont blame the art

  217. Dear former kenpo, thanks for the support. One thing that I find so interesting from the Kenpo cult is that anybody who speaks against them needs “meds” or is “disgruntled.” Another person commented “seen this before.” The only meds I take are for arthritis, I have a great life and family, and I am telling the truth, unlike many on this thread. And I have never seen a video like mine.
    Your comments are quite valid, realistic, and encouraging. Your reference to Clutching Feathers is interesting as that is the first Kenpo technique Larry Hartsell exposed for me. He REALLY GRABBED my hair, and it really hurt; then he slammed me to the mats and mounted me (very eye-opening). He next did Grasp of Death for the side headlock. As I stepped over he showed me how dumb that was due to the fact that when you go for the double hammerfists you set yourself up to be thrown, and that the hammerfists have no effect.
    I am now seriously thinking about a more serious expose. The comments from so many of the EPAK followers have proven to me that what I am doing is quite important. All throughout Youtube I see such dangerous Kenpo arrogance, insane fighting concepts, and supposed “masters” that have never mastered any real fighting ideas. They are unproven commodities, so therefore have nothing to offer.
    In closing I must comment on Steve Shaffer’s “challenge” to my Clutching Feathers video. What he has basically said is “Okay Mr. Libby, I’ll show you. I’ll have somebody lay their hand on my hair, they’ll totally cooperate with me, I’ll beat them up while they stand there, put in an extra move or two, and that will prove everything I say and show Robert Libby knows nothing.” And this type of insanity that puts young students at risk is why I am more inspired to do more videos, and expose what a complete fraud EPAK is on the street.
    Thanks for the respect and support.

  218. After perusing this thread, I feel the need to clarify a particular aspect regarding Bob Libby challenging Ed Parker to a fight. About a year ago, Mill Crenshaw emailed me asking what recollections I had, if any, of Bob Libby’s claims to have called Ed Parker from my apartment and challenged him to a fight. After giving it some thought, I wrote back to Mill, giving him my honest answer that I simply didn’t recall that happening. At the time, Mills did not tell me that he was going to post my email in this forum. Had he done so, I would have conducted additional research. In any case, when I subsequently learned that my response was posted, and Bob Libby’s response, I made some additional inquiries. One of those inquiries was to my top black belt Steve Walton, who shared with me that he recalled my mentioning Bob Libby calling Ed Parker from my apartment and that Gary Brandolino was present. I have to take Steve at his word. Like me, he doesn’t have a dog in this fight. As an aside, I am still confused as to why I would have been party to this call, the reason being that my participation would have put me in the position of being an instigator. Under any circumstances, I can’t imagine Ed Parker being pleased that I had been party to a call of this nature. As such, perhaps I arranged the call (I don’t remember having Ed Parker’s home phone number, although I suppose it’s possible), thinking that Bob Libby might back down at the last minute, although clearly he did not. Anyway, the purpose of this post is to confirm that the call did take place, even though I still don’t personally remember it (I’ll take Steve Walton at his word. I have to believe that if Gary Brandolino were contacted, he would be a second confirmation). Second, I read somewhere in this thread that Gary Brandolino had commented that Ed Parker came to my wedding (to Linda Lee) and looked bad and could hardly walk because of his suffering from severe gout. For the record, Gary Brandolino was not present at my wedding, so if in fact he did say that, his statements are not firsthand. Moreover, although it is true that Ed Parker was dealing with gout at that time, he certainly did not look like “death warmed over,” and I have video to clearly show that he looked to be in good health. I hope this helps to clear us some of the misconceptions. Respectfully, Tom Bleecker

    • After reconsidering this email by supposedly Tom Bleecker who know says someone remembers him being at the infamous so called phantom phone call that Mr. Libby made, I have to believe that this is another made up email account from somebody in order to keep perpetuating this myth. And I wish people would get there stories straight. Mr. Parker said he dropped two people armed with bottles or knives and the other two got back in the car. Not that difficult of a feat, beating two drunk guys down – however Kenpo did it.

  219. WOW! Kevin, are you sure it wasn’t the morgue? Why is it that every time a martial arts person has a fight the other person always goes to the hospital or morgue?

    • It’s called forensics Mr. Libby. Tom doesn’t remember your call and says he wouldn’t have helped you. And conveniently, someone posting as Tom in a few emails later says that someone else told him that he was there so he says it must be true??? Of course no one can get in touch with that person. And how curious you never stated what the conversation was about. So you didn’t have Mr. Parker’s telephone number and you say his wife calls you back hours later? Were you in the habit of picking up Mr. Bleeker’s telephone when it rang at his place? How convenient you picked it up, and no one else did. You’ve been threatening everyone here and calling them cowards but you never give your address. I can see how everyone would think you were a nut. Are you in a mental hospital and they let you make your videos? Whose is really the coward Mr. Libby?

  220. I feel I need to Clarify something with Tom Bleecker. We all change as we get older. Perhaps he does not remember the call. But Steve Walton seems to be verifying Tom had referred to a call to Ed by me with Gary there. I would also like to apologize for my telling Tom to go fuck himself- not appropriate. But back in the day Tom was an instigator. Usually in just silly ways.

  221. Ok Mr. Libby, here’s a video response for your clutching feathers argument. Hopefully the concepts you missed oh so long ago will come to light. http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YTMyqa9gv58

    • Hey Mike- same offer with you. How about it? Or will you hide behind the Leon County Sheriff? I will not punch or use any offensive strikes. I will merely grab you and then counter with grappling concepts. How about we give it a go? We will sign waivers and a letter of the conditions. No lawsuits, no games, and no bullshit. You know, like real men used to do it?

  222. That proved me wrong? That brought things to light? Are you nuts? No real hair grab was ever put on, there was no real resistance, Ed writing a book when I was 9 means nothing, and Larry saying he studied Kenpo also means nothing- I tell people I studied Kenpo. It still does not negate that Steve would not face me, and with me putting severe limits on me, I was flying to him at my expense, and he chickened out. He is just another cult follower. And he tried to pass me over to 2 other people. In tge old days we called that a coward. This proved nothing.

  223. Bob Libby, Thanks for taking the time to extend an apology. The truth is, as I mentioned, I just didn’t recall the conversation/event, and still don’t. At my age – I’ll turn 69 next month – I’m not as sharp as I used to be at recalling things. My biggest hurdle is I couldn’t fathom why I would place myself in the middle of your battle with Ed Parker. Anyway, it’s water under the bridge. You may recall that I was around before you, Scott Loring, Larry Hartsell, and others of that era. As an aside, I recently located Scott Loring and had a nice stroll with him down Memory Lane. I was also helpful in locating Paul Dalton, who has been missing from the Kenpo campus. In any event, all these years (now over 50), I’ve remained in Kenpo in one form or another, so I’ve been around – or at least as Mary Richards once said, “I’ve been close by.” To be honest, in reading this thread, you make some good points. I was around before “Big Red” and the naming of the techniques and such, and around that time I raised some of the same concerns that you have (I also wrote them in my book “Unsettled Matters: the Life and Death of Bruce Lee”). The difference between me and you is that I’ve tried to raise this issues respectfully and with tact (not something I was known for in my earlier years, if you recall). Anyway, I think your positions and concerns would be more easily entertained, and even some accepted, if you could find a way to put aside your animosity toward Ed Parker – place that in a separate box labeled “private” – and leave all that out of your dialogue. I don’t have any recollection of your feud with Ed, and I honestly don’t want to know. Surely you will agree that Kenpo has its good, even strong, points – and a great community of folks, many of which make for great, long-lasting friendships. I know that you know this, otherwise you wouldn’t have stayed around as long as you did. A wise kenpoist once said, “You will leave Kenpo long before Kenpo leaves you” (I paraphrase). Perhaps you might entertain a new approach. Everyone has something to offer. We all make mistakes, and many of us have been hotheaded and said things we wish we could take back and start over. Anyway, again, thanks for the apology. It takes a far bigger man to make an online apology than it takes to bark insults. As an aside, I had to go on Ancestry.com to find a high school photo of you at Beverly Hills High School in order to recall you. Yes, again, it’s the getting old part. I do recall your company back in the late 1970s when my then-wife Jennifer and I lived in Brentwood and where Gary Brandolino was a frequent visitor. The Bob Libby I recall back then was a decent guy who was fun to be around. Perhaps in many ways you’re still that same guy. Respectfully, Tom Bleecker

  224. to all concerned i watched steves video and itclearly showed that techs are ideas that can be altered or changed as in targets to fit the situation…steve was clearly showing that the pupose of clutching feathers is to show that if your hair is grabbed or some one attempts to grab ,,you dont just stand there.. you hit them.. he also showed how libby was clearly doing the ideal phase of the tech wrong in the postion of the arm thats grabbing the hand that grabs the hair…the point is,, one could post a 100 videos,,,, exposing him.. it wont do any good,, your dealing with the mindset of on whos hatred of Mr parker and the art is so great he wont listen,, no matter how hard you try to show him.. thats evident from all the post here,.. by continuing to dialog wit this disturbed individual,, all we are doing in feeding into his ego.. i for one.. will not post any more because thats exactly what libby wants,,, to put out a fire,, you must remove the air from it,, i suggest we remove ourselves and thus give him no more air…..god bless

    • Another point Kevin- did you also observe how Steve Shaffer refused to meet me despite me giving him every advantage? Did you notice how he folded like a coward? Once again I am dealing in facts and not theory and bullshit like you. I presented a challenge and he ran away like a typical Kenpo Koward. You are just a cult member and will tell any lie to justify your beliefs.

    • Yes, can be changed or altered on a person that does not move and even cooperates with you. And as more chime in I am getting more support- that must really frost you Kevin. A lot written agrees with me.

  225. Kevin, on this I must agree- “if your hair is grabbed” is not grabbing the hair. You are merely a delusional fool. showing me errant crap 100 times does not change the fact that it is errant crap.

  226. Dear Tom, that was some great advice. I am assuming by “big red” you mean Larry Tatum? So how is Scott Loring? I also hope you read the parts where I gave a list of Kenpo artists, though not all, that I respect and thought could fight in the street.
    I think you would agree with the fact that all martial arts have developed some disturbing cult like behaviors. I also feel that Kenpo in the 1960s was not Kenpo now.
    Once again, my apologies, thanks for the advice, and hope all is well with you and your famiky.

    • Bob, By “Big Red” I’m referring to the teaching manual that was introduced in the late 1960s and was a integral part of the national franchising venture. At that time, I was the head instructor of the SM school and taught the evening advanced class, and was also teaching privates during the day while attending college. Big Red included lesson plans and the various belt categories, and to be honest, I was not in favor of the change over – and told Ed that. The problem that you and others during that time encountered was that, if I may make an analogy, you had been trained in a Mike Tyson boxing gym environment and were suddenly required to train like Sugar Ray Leonard – to go from a brawler to a technician. Where earlier, street toughness and reality based techniques were the top priority, now suddenly learning vast amounts of material were taking precedence. You weren’t the only one who rebelled. Even though the franchising venture was short-lived, Big Red and all that new protocol remained in place. Admittedly, it has be difficult for a fair number to accept, especially if they were brought up in the “old school” as you and I were. That said, and to be fair, while Kenpo hasn’t had as many tough fighters, mainly due to the amount of time that is required to obtain belt promotions, it hasn’t been without great fighters (witness Frank Trejo as one of many examples), as well as exceptional martial artists who have gone on to win tournaments in forms and mass attack and become great teachers. I guess the bottom line, as is the case with any art, not all its practitioners will become deadly street fighters. As an aside, there are those who point out that there is much more to the martial arts than learning how to fight. Mike Pick often says that if all a student wants to do is learn how to fight, they don’t need to spend years learning Kenpo or any other art. All they need do is walk up to the toughest guy in their neighborhood and spit in their face. And keep doing that until, soon enough, they learn how to fight. It is also worth pointing out that martial arts is two words – one the martial, or warring aspect, and the other “arts” the art aspect. Most people excel in one or the other; few excel in both. Anyway, over the years, I’ve learned a great deal about what the martial arts means to me. Much of this has come from sharing with many of the greats, which I was fortunate to do when penning their biographies – several dozen in the two Kenpo “Journey” books, as well as the bios of Donnie Williams and, most recently, Benny “The Jet” Urquidez. One thing I have learned through my 50 plus years is that, by and large, normal, well adjusted people don’t take up the martial arts. People who come to the art and stay usually bring with them a degree of fear and dysfunction, some part of them early on was damaged in the shipping, so to speak. I surely brought my share with me. The good news is that we all have far more in common than we know, and it’s what we share in common that serve as the building blocks of our brotherhood. Ed Parker once pointed out in a class that no matter where we are in this world, if we find ourselves in trouble and in need of help, all we need do is pick up the yellow pages and call the nearest Kenpo school and help is on the way. Years later, I remember him posing this question to a class, “Imagine your phone rings and one of us tells you he’s in trouble, what are the first words out of your mouth?” A good minute later it was clear that no one had the answer (although several had good answers), which was, “Where are you?” To Ed, this was the most important, we don’t ask questions, we don’t judge, we don’t contemplate. If one of us is in trouble, we instantly “head out.” That’s the great brotherhood that I’ve enjoyed for many decades. Admittedly there have been years when I’ve been far less active than in my early days, but I’ve stayed connected, and hopefully, although not always, in a positive way. I hope that when my days are up and my belt retired for good that I can look back and know that I gave back to Kenpo a fair amount in return for all it has given me.

  227. Rainer Schulte

    Mr. Libby, you said that you managed the St. Monica School in the 70s for 2 years. Can you be more precise.
    about the years?

  228. Rainer, I remember you and your blue BMW 2002 (I think that was the model). I was about 21 so it would be from about 1973 to 1974, but I could be off a little bit. I remember you when you and Larry Hartsell took on a job painting a house, but I believe you two consumed more beer than you used paint. I was there right before Larry Tatum took over. So what is your point?

  229. Rainer Schulte

    you are right on the BMW and Larry and I painting a house, but please answer my question. just give me the month/year when you took over and when you left.

  230. Rainer, we are going back forty years, so I cannot give you a precise date. But I was going out as Larry Tatum was replacing me. So whenever Larry Tatum came in back up about 2 years. When I was there Rick Carthew and Sam Estrade were there. It was also when the IRS shut us down. I was there before that and after. George Waite was also there. I hope that helps.

  231. Rainer Schulte

    Looks like you are evading my question. I find it odd that you do not remember such an important time in your Journey. OK, different question: When did you start your Kenpo at the St.Monica School? When did you test for Black. 1st and 2nd. You remember George Waite being there. What was his job or was he just working out? Who was Jerry Leichtman?

    • One other point Rainer-whike running tge SM school I was also doing kickboxing with Leo Wang in Chinatown, so I was quite busy. Some times may get a little fuzzy. So when did you stop wearing lederhosen and wear pants? Whst was tge exact date and what color were tgey? Got the point? And that must have been an important day on your journey.

  232. Just memory lapse, and who are you to challenge me? I’ve seen your video in Germant-very laughable. But I’ll play along. Jerry Leichtman was a Jewish guy that was in real estate and propery management, and he smoked cigars. He was short and bald, and a great guy. His best friend was Bernie Bernheim. They were both on bomber crews during WW2. They spent time together in a German prison camp for American POWs. Jerry’s wife was latin I believe, but I forget her name. George Waite would have technically been my boss. But he never really taught. His girlfriend was named Micki Garcia and was a former Playmate. I started Kenpo in 1965. My black is from Paul Dalton, but Ed totally accepted it. Rainer, I lived at the Santa Monica school-Monday to Saturday and trained a lot harder than you ever did. So if you are trying to say I am lying you are nuts. I was the manager and head instructor, and Ed prmised me a 3rd. due to how well I ran the place and my skills. Alex Sensenbrenner was also there. He got into an argument and George Waite punched him in the face breaking his nose- he did it at one of the tables at the hamburger stand in front of the school. I was there when he did it. Alex sued George and it was thrown out if court. I believe George lived on Beverly Glen. Alex also seriously injured a female student while showing off-he kicked her in the face and seriously damaged her neck. I was just running over to stop him but was too late. George handled it and I was amazed she did not sue. Alex was a sort of a gopher for Ed and sometimes used Ed’s black Cadillsc that I believe was a present from Elvis.
    Any other stupid questions? Did I pass? Don’t challenge me. I find your question’s tone rude and insulting. You may have gotten drunk with Larty Hartsell but you are no Hartsell. Don’t play out of your league.

  233. Rainer Schulte

    never wore Lederhosen!! LOL. When and how did I challenge you? I never said you are lying. I tried to be civil not to “enrage” you just trying to fill in some dates for my own timeline.
    And yes I am shivering in my pants!!!!
    Now that I have all the answers I was looking for, I leave this Forum laughing
    On a side note: I have never known anyone to use the F word as often as you have, so I am not saying it.

  234. Interesting Memory Lane strolling. Much of it I recall, although not all of it. Bob, if you started your Kenpo in 1965 at the age of 13, then did you start in Danny’s Saturday class? I wasn’t around the school after the fall of 1969 when I left to make a film on location with Blake Edwards. I’m wondering if you’re confusing Ed’s 1960 gold Cadillac with John Walker’s black Cadillac of the same year? John was a first generation black belt who worked out at the SM school. Both were great cars. By the way, was the apartment you visited with Gary in a security building on Granville Avenue or a downstairs two-bedroom on Goshen Avenue? Jennifer (we married in 1975) and I lived in two Brentwood apartments, and Gary visited both. I have a feeling that the apartment you visited was the one on Goshen where I often had a weekend barbecue. When you trained with Paul Dalton, was that at the school over the auto repair shop near Bundy and Wilshire? I opened that school with Paul in 1969, I believe. If so, you may recall John Wilson. He drove a VW and used to stop by at night drunk and throw beer bottles from the stairway landing down onto Wilshire Blvd. He was big on crashing forearms. You may also have worked out with Mark Mitchell who got his black from Paul.

  235. Rainer Schulte

    Tom,
    where are we going with this? If anyone is comparing Lederhosen to Managing a Karate School should be “Baker Acted” (The Baker Act refers to a Florida statute that allows for an individual who is 18 years or older to be either voluntarily or involuntarily committed to a psychiatric facility, on a temporary basis, if he is deemed to be a threat to himself or to others) By the way Lederhosen are worn in Bavaria and that is not where I am from.
    .

  236. Seems Mr. Libby is finding some kindness out of Old Kenpo Friends after all. No condemnation just memory lane stuff…,

    “If your phone rings and someone from the group needs help. By all means help him.”

    • You see Eric, back in olden times I was respected. I find it interesting that the more the “old timers” chime in I am not such a liar. I will also tell you that it is really bothering me that I let this get to me to the point I insulted Tom Bleecker- and to my marrow. If I see him in April it is to apologize in person and like a man.
      If you were to talk to my wife and kids they would tell you how even tempered I am, and honest. The problem you fail to see is what MA has turned into- a fraud. I see LA riddled with McDojos and 10th degrees running around everywhere. People that call themselves “masters of self-defense” that have never defended themself. It truly has turned into a cult.

  237. I started in the evening classes back when David Laredo and Albert Cornejo were around. The Cadillac I am referring to was in the 70s and was a black Eldorado. The school was near Bundy upstairs. I believe the apartment was on Goshen. If it helps your wife was pregnant then. I worked with Mark Mitchell alot in the beginning, but then I took most classes as he was going to college. Yes, I definitely remember John Wilson. He looked like Rutger Hauer and a Jimmy Woo fanatic that LOVED SMASHING FOREARMS! Paul Dalton wasn’t around much as he was driving hig rig trucks. I then took the kids for awhile at Paul’s. Do you rrmrmber Mitch Spirt? Nice to reminisce.

  238. I talked with Albert this morning. He recently had a great reunion over the telephone with Scott Loring. I was also able to find Paul Dalton some time ago when the Kenpo Symposium was held in LA’s Chinatown. Not sure about the dates you’re posting. I was the head instructor at the SM school from 1965 through 1969, although for a while I managed Ed and Chuck Sullivan’s school down on Crenshaw Blvd. Albert recently gave me a DVD of a 8mm film that he shot when I was awarded by black belt in October 1965. I was the first brown belt and black belt at the SM school. Steve Sanders Muhammad made brown that night, as did Terry Arnell. Many old timers are seen in that 8mm film footage. My sense is that Albert and Dave were teaching much later than 1965. The apartment was Goshen because Jen was pregnant and had our daughter Kayti in June 1976. Eight months later Jennifer and I learned that Kayti had a hole in her heart (VSD), which was the main reason we moved to Carmel, to get her to fresh air until her open heart surgery could be done ten months later. Thankfully the surgery was a success and today remains in excellent health. As I recall, I think you moved to Chico with Gary sometime after that? Mark Mitchell eventually graduated chiropractic school and has maintained a practice on the east coast for decades, married Colleen Cookson and had a bunch of kids. John Wilson was indeed a strong disciple of Jimmy Woo, along with Bob Cook. The name Mitch Spirt isn’t familiar to me. But keep in mind that after 1969, I was training with Bruce Lee, whom I arranged to get an apartment at the Barrington Plaza where I was living, which made us neighbors. In the early 1970s I began writing for Bill Shatner and teaching him Kenpo; also did a film with Jim Coburn, who was one of Bruce’s students. Anyway, because of my work, I wasn’t around the SM school much. Earlier, I gave my share of the school above the auto shop to Paul, and I guess the school eventually closed. Maybe Mark Mitchell ran it for a while. Besides Mark, I recall Paul had another black belt, an older man, Charles something? Mederis? Some of this stuff feels like it happened yesterday, while some feels like it happened a hundred years ago, if at all. Well, this brings to mind a familiar quote of Dave Hebler’s, “Getting old ain’t for sissies.”

    Do you rrmrmber Mitch Spirt? Nice to reminisce.

    • That was Chuck McDerris, a great guy. I awarded him his black with Mark Mitchell. As to Dave Laredo and Albert, they were not teaching there, but studying there. I actually came in like December of 1965. Dave and Albert were green belts. Another guy there was Leo Monahan, a great technician, super smooth and precise. Glad your daughter came out okay. I have 1 son, 2 stepdaughters, and three grand kids.
      Actually the “growing old isn’t for sissies” was first popularized by Betty Davis, but a great line.
      Mark moved to Marblehead, MASS. He had 4 daughters. I talked to him when Coleen was pregnant with number 4 and asked him “do you want a boy” and he said “no, I want another girl.”
      So what did Scott wind up doing? You were all around 8 to 10 years older, but I seem to remember that Scott was at UCLA studying business. Man that guy could move. A heavyweight that moved like a lightweight and super flexible.
      Nice to kick around the old days. Is Paul still alive, he would be about 77 as he was born in 1938. Stay in touch.

      • Yes, Charles McDarris, that’s the guy, older. I see him on the Family Tree of Black Belts as having received his black belt (along with Mark Mitchell) from Paul Dalton. Strange that I don’t see Lex Sensenbrenner on the tree?? I know he made black and managed the school for a while when Ed was in financial trouble. In fact, when I competed in the 1987 Long Beach Internationals, he was one of the judges in my ring. Why he’s not listed on the tree is odd. Well, I’m sure there’s an answer. I’m still confused about Albert and Dave. I’ll have to ask Albert to refresh my memory. But in 1965 I don’t believe we had colored belts – just brown tips on the white belt, brown, and black. As I recall, colored belts came in with the franchising, which was much later. I also don’t remember kids being allowed into adult classes. Kids were allowed in Danny’s Saturday kids class that started around that time. When I started at the La Cienega school, I was 16 years of age – and the youngest in Kenpo – along with Jimmy Doughtery “Little Jimmy” in Pasadena, a senior of mine who made brown when I was a 3-tip white belt. I have hundreds of photos that were sent to me for the two Journey books. I’ll have to go back and see when colored belts came into the system. Chuck Sullivan would know. I remember Mark and Colleen moving to Andover. They used to bring their firstborn daughter Heather to my apartment on Granville. Earlier we lived together in a house in Studio City. Before that, Mark was going with a girl Holly Hoberg, who was the secretary at the SM school and later became attached with Larry Hartsell, if I recall. Scott has done very well financially, quite successful, and recently celebrated (43?) years of marriage, has kids and grandkids. Paul Dalton is still living and married to Carolyn.

  239. Rainer, my comment to lederhosen was only to show that people have different rituals that show they are older. We often remember those very vividly. As to another of your comments, do not be so dishonest as to say you were not challenging things I said.
    So why should I be Baker Acted for mentioning lederhosen? I never compared lederhosen to running a martial arts school, only to time. And you are wrong- it is technically called a 5150 and exists in every state in America. I have not threatehed anyhody in any way other than a challenge to show bad martial arts ideas. I have not threatened to hurt myself. Your analysis is ridiculous.

  240. Yo Kenpo bros and all “the others”!
    Why all this nonsense about who knew what, what works where, and was Edmund Parker tough or not?
    Does it make a difference?
    I am a self trained and self ranked Martial Artist.
    Been there and done that.
    My system Kenboki is a combo of basics from what I call “functional” kenpo moves, western boxing hands, and thai kicks(waist and down).
    I developed 5 forms made for self-defense.
    Now, everybody started someplace, right?
    So what if I gave myself master black?
    It’s my system.
    All the masters going back ages had to self rank at some point and time.
    Is what I do effective?
    It’s ALWAYS done me right when I needed it.
    All you have to stop the bickering and try to get along.
    The big braggarts ain’t gonna like this.
    Some of you, like this monfongo character have no respect for their elder martial artists.
    Learn some Mr. Monfongo.
    Libby is frustrated that he ain’t being taken seriously.
    You get more with articulate kindness Libby.
    The rest her stop day dreaming about the old days and what was or could have been.
    If ALL of you spent more time practicing instead of coming on here to gossip you would be better off.
    I ain’t no spring chicken myself.
    Going on 62 years young.
    Why?
    Cause I’m practicing my craft, my art daily instead of moaning and complaining.

    • Well, I’ll turn 69 years of age next month and I’m still working out and doing seminars, as well as writing books on the arts and the lives and careers of many of its icons and legends. That said, I’ve always enjoyed my martial arts brotherhood – and as time goes by, reminiscing, especially about those who have since passed and the good times we shared. I’ve said this many times, but if the only reason I’ve stayed in the martial arts for more than 50 years is to learn and teach karate, then I’ve wasted countless hours of my life. To me there is far more to the martial arts to just fighting and training. In any case, I do recognize and respect the notion that each person has their own particular reasons that drive and guide their martial arts journey.

    • Yeah, and I’m a self-taught brain surgeon. You are an idiot.

  241. I just talked with Chuck Sullivan, who is the most senior practitioner (cofounder of the IKCA) in EPAK. His recollection is that colored belts weren’t introduced until the franchising came into existence in the late 1960s or early 1970s.

    • Dear Tom, I ,like you, am getting older. But sometimes a time reference at the same time helps- I Spy. It ran from 1065-68. After some time in Scott’s classes I was let into Norm Pattiz’s Monday- Wednesday sparring class from 8-10pm. I absolutely remember that a few times Ed stopped by to say he would be on the show that night. And Tom Howard, Albert Cornejo, and others like John DeLuna wore greens. We were the sparring team and would compete against Pasadena and Crenshaw. And I was not yet driving so it was absolutely 1967. And yes, I was a kid. Most were 4 to 10 years older than me. But there was also a blonde haired kid from Crenshaw that was 1 year older than me. I hope that clarifies some things.
      Also, I will be in LA on April 2nd. Maybe we can hook up. I will call Dalton from Thailand tonight.
      Take care.

  242. I’ve had enough.
    This is directed to Mills Crenshaw, Squibb, and the newest “big mouth” Earl James.
    I’m making myself available for all you that have bad mouthed me for a full contact (with or without geat)private match at the location of your choosing.
    I do expect reimbursement for travel and lodging if and when I win.
    If I lose I will make a donation to any charity of your choosing.
    All particulars can be discussed and arranged if there is acceptance on your part.
    By the way, don’t do what others tried to do with Robert Libby, pass me off to someone taking your place.
    I’ve come to the conclusion that
    I am going to have to earn my respect among the doubters posting here.
    I didn’t want to go here but have been given no choice by the latest addition to the forum talkers Earl James.

  243. Dear Monfongo, I gave Steve Shaffer every advantage and he weaseled out. You, like me are an “old school” guy . If we had a problem we settled it like men, and sometimes became friends through mutual respect. These starched gi shoulder slapping chickens will never meet a real challenge. If I am in the USA at that time I will cover your back, and that’s a promise.

  244. Rainer Schulte

    You might have noticed that I call you Mr. Libby, because I only call my friend by their first name.
    I believe you would have mad a good Politician they way you dance around Facts and Words.
    How come you’re not listed on the Family Tree as one of Paul Dalton’s black belts???” and “Hey, I think Mr.Bleecker’s right – we didn’t have colored belts in 1965 and we didn’t have 13 year olds in the adult night classes. You must have started way later.” The following is a quote from Larry Tatum.
    >Libby was a managing for a short while about a six months
    before I got there. He came back once to meet me and tried to take some students away with him…didn’t work and Mr.Parker told him to stay away.<
    No one questions you on your fighting ability, because no one has seen you fight, but we do question you on your Kenpo. (Ed Parker's American Kenpo)
    I just returned from California where I had a chance to talk to lot of the Old Timers. None of the seem to remember you.

    • Rainer, I must admit to one error- I actually started June of 1966. In 1065 I was still in judo, but our sensei left Los Angeles.
      Now as to your lies and misrepresentations:
      1. I openly wore a black belt and was the head instructor at Ed Parker’s Kenpo Karate at 11104 Santa Monica Blvd. for about 2 years- this is publicly known by Chuck Sullivan, Vic Leroux, Albert Cornejo, Robert Eisele, Jim Demecke, Larry Tatum. George Waite, Paul Dalton, Leo Monahan, Diane Tanaka, Sam Estrada, Richard Carthew, Mark Mitchell. “Big John” Henderson, and Addison Randall. There are many others.
      2. Larry Tatum stated that I tried to steal students from Ed’s school. That is a complete lie. I started from scratch and a few students came over to me, but not one from Ed Parker’s to that new location. I left Ed’s on good terms. And Ed never told me to “stay away.” Have Tatum say that to my face and see how long he is vertical.
      3. At the age of 15 I was in the Monday- Wednesday sparring classes of Norm Pattiz. People that know this- Paul Dalton, Norm Pattiz, Jim Winston, Albert Cornejo, Vic Leroux, Jim Demecke, Robert Eisele, Dewey Cruise, Tom Kelly (a catholic priest, not the really big Tom Kelly), Tom Howard, John DeLuna, and others. One memorable night was when I was sparring with Jim Denecke and I charged him and he went into the front picture window and destroyed it- THANK GOD JIM WAS NOT HURT!!! All he did was cut a toe. But the window exploded. It could have been very bad.
      3. I promoted Chuck McDerris to black belt with Mark Mitchell. That night I kicked in Chuck to 1st black and Addison Randall to 3rd. degree brown. This is known by Addison Randall, Mark Mitchell, Paul Dalton, and I believe Mitchell Spirt.
      4. I am not listed in the Ed Parker Family Tree because I chose Ed off to a real fight, and he hid behind Lelani’s dress. I had a started teaching at a Westwood health club. I had a verbal dispute with a guy badmouthing Paul Dalton. He called Ed and told him I tore up my black belt certificate, urinated on it publicly, and screamed “Ed Parker is shit.” Yeah, that happened. I would have possibly been arrested. So Ed called the owner and told him “Bob goes or I come down there and hurt his students. WOW, the “Honolulu street-fighter” threatening white belts- what a tough guy. All he had to do was call me and ask. This incident certainly shows how unstable Ed was. I later called Ed from Tom Bleecker’s apartment, which Tom’s student Steve Walton said he remembers a phone call to Ed by me, and chose Ed off. Ed later had Lelani call me at my house in North Hollywood, Calif., and she told me that Ed had a VERY BAD HEART and could drop dead in a fight. Her words, while in tears, were “please don’t kill my husband.” I assured her I would never hurt a sick man.
      Now as to you you arrogant little Smurf- I saw your video in Germany- your Kenpo sucks. I also saw your little show where you knock some guy out by touching his face and neck- pure cult bullshit. To bad your not in Calif now; I would love to have you try that parlor trick on me. You are a fraud. Now go talk to my witnesses and see who’s lying? Oh, by the way, FUCK YOU!!!

  245. Ronert,
    Thanks a mil!
    Although we’ve never met I hope you don’t mind if I call you my friend.
    Like you, I’ve simply started to get fed up with these guys “yapping”.
    I agree with you, they will keep talking but won’t step up.
    I give respect when I get it.
    From the start Crenshaw rubbed me the wrong way and then his kenpo buddies followed.
    The last time something like this happened to me was when a well known Georgia based “master” started trash talking me.
    This was ten years ago.
    Reliable sources in GA. were keeping me up on his comments.
    I asked for proof.
    They recorded him.
    I flew out to GA. and arrived at hos dojo greesed up, wearing hand wraps, in shorts, sneakers, shirtless.
    He was teaching a children’s class so I just stood by the seating area and stared in his direction.
    He was executing techniques fast and hard, until he saw me.
    All of a sudden he starts to do things slow, clucthes his back like its hurting, and walks like he’s 90.
    Class over, he walks over hand strecthed out wanting to shake mine and he’s looking pale.
    I wispered “lucky there a chikdren here because I was going to turn your gi red”.
    He bowed and in a low tone responded “Thanks for not embarrassing me in front of the kids, and I’m sorry”.
    I left and he never mentioned me again.
    True story.
    Glad to know we have each other’s back.
    When in US, hopefully South Florida we can meet up.
    Dinner for you and yours on me.

  246. They will not accept a challenge. Now Steve Shaffer is making it seem as if I threatened to come in and just pound him, and that the Leon County Sheriff will arrest me if I show up- what a punk.
    The “new Kenpo buzz” is from Rainer Schulte and implies that I never really got a black, lied about my time at Ed Parker’s school, despite there being hundreds of witnesses, and Larry Tatum saying I was not there for the time I said, but he is another Parker cult follower with money to lose. But what is the funniest is Rainer says I am not on the Ed Parker Fmily Tree under Paul Dlton as a black belt- OF COURSE NOT, I AM THE GUY THAT CHOSE ED OFF!!!!! Yet Ed had me on promotion boards, promised me a bump from 1st to 3rd degree, ran the school, i OPENLY WORE A BLACK BELT, and left on good terms. It is all so provable, but like so many new breed MA people they have no honer.
    So please look at Riner Schulte on Youtube. He does this touch to the side of some guys head and neck and the guy goes down unconscious- pure cult theater. I guess Rainer has the “Death Touch” down. I have a buddy that speaks German and he will translate it for me when he gets back.
    Good luck my friend.

  247. Rainer Schulte

    I give up. It is useless taking to a psychopath

    • You also give up because I buried you with provable facts and real witnesses, all of who but 3 are EPAk black belts. And all are provable, unlike your “death touch.” Go slap yourself for awhile.

  248. Hey, Rainer. I just had a rough translation done. You claim on German TV that you used your body’s electricity to knock this guy out. Most fakes do not like being exposed publicly. You constantly implied that I was a liar, and I do not take that lying down. You and so many of the “new Kenpo” cult are just punks. I could have kicked your candy ass when I was 15 to 16. So go practice your “death touch.” You also implied I should be put away for using the term “lederhosen” as a rite of passage. You are a clown. You gave up because you were exposed.

  249. This entire thread has finally piqued my interest to the degree that I’m looking into its roots, as well as its subsequent sub-threads. Having read all of the 342 responses that have been posted over the past four plus years, my sense is that there’s more going on here than meets the eyes. I need to do some research, but in the interim, I think it’s important to know that this thread was started over four years ago by this site’s owner, Al Case, who claims to have written over 2,000,000 words that have been included in a wide assortment of martial arts magazines, and worked for “Inside Kung-fu” magazine. Al Case labels this article “Chinese Kenpo Karate Scandal!” without alleging its truth or falsity, yet then goes on to write the article about allegations of Ed Parker double-crossing Jimmy Woo over 50 years ago as if his (Case’s) statements are fact, and then closes by stating that he’s looking forward to hearing any information anyone might have. Then throughout four years and 342 responses, Al Case offers just a single comment four years ago, and then never again participates, except for an April 2014 comment in which he states that he doesn’t monitor the site, that everything that is written gets posted, and that he hates censorship. If that’s true, then why start the thread in the first place and label it as he did? Those who have read this thread can readily see that its original subject matter was long ago abandoned and been replaced with four years of what some have viewed as a slanderous attack on Ed Parker and American Kenpo. I’ll return in a few days once I have distilled this thread down to its essentials. Those who are interested in Al Case’s background, here is his website that includes a video: http://monstermartialarts.com/

  250. Addendum: Note that the title of Al Case’s article reads: “The Terrible Truth about Ed Parker and Chinese Kenpo, ” but two sentences later he writes “Unfortunately, I don’t know how true it is, but with the information I present in this article perhaps some one could let me know if they have any light to shed on the truth or falsity of it.” That was more than four years ago. Over the course of 342 posts, Al Case never again offers further comment. On the face of this, it appears that Al Case merely lit a fuse and then permanently left never again to return. I find that odd.

  251. Few thoughts on this discussion

    * The debate of street vs. sport is false dichotomy. Sport fighters are as able as Kenpoists to target the vulnerable areas of the body. When the time comes for them to add dirt, they can.

    * Bas Rutten, the MMA fighter, has some thoughts on “street karate”. It’s worth a listen. Link here goo.gl/uu4cUw

    * Video of a Kenpo instructor losing the Gracie challenge twice in less than 2 minutes. Could he have stopped the takedowns with Charging Rams? Stopped the choke with a bite? Link here goo.gl/d6LraO

    * Had Mills Crenshaw taken the fight against Milo Savage, he’d have been KO’d quickly. That likelihood and the resulting harm to Kenpo’s reputation is likely why Ed Parker had LeBell take the match. Boxing isn’t a good stylistic match against grappling, a fact known since the old catch-as-catch-can days, and had LeBell lost there would be no harm to Kenpo’s reputation and thus Parker’s business.

    * Is this video evidence that Kung Fu works in the street? Do the Kenpo stories of fending off attackers bear any similarity to this video? Link here goo.gl/q2WXrb

    * 10 minute video explaining why set techniques, forms, sets, and point sparring are not especially useful from Matt Thornton. Personally, I find the first few UFCs more persuasive. Link here goo.gl/vIuLsg

    *All Kenpoists should take 6 months and learn to box. Don’t think of it as abandoning Kenpo, but as applying it, if that helps justify such a course of action. You’ll be glad you did even if you decide to abandon it completely at the end of the 6 months. Timing, angles, footwork, conditioning, relaxation, and increased toughness will be your reward that you can always take back to EPAK if you wish.

    * The way Kenpoists view Aikido is how sportive art people view Kenpo (need I explain why?). Keeping this in mind could help you understand why speaking of the street / tailoring / defense / etc. doesn’t convince combat sport enthusiasts otherwise.

  252. What follows is my response to the original question posed by Al Case regarding Ed Parker’s relationship with Jimmy Wing Woo and the book (“The Secrets of Chinese Karate”) they were writing (ironically, since Al Case asked this question over four years ago, only one out of the nearly 400 responses have addressed this issue). In the late 1950s, Ed Parker was starting to establish himself within the martial arts community in this country, but specifically in the Los Angeles area. By 1959, his school in Pasadena was his only school, although he would soon open a second school on La Cienega Blvd. in Los Angeles. Around that time, he was being introduced to members of the Chinese martial arts communities that were rooted in the Los Angeles and San Francisco Chinatowns. While visiting San Francisco, he was introduced to Jimmy Woo, who was a highly respected kung-fu practitioner whose skill level was thought to be on a par with Bruce Lee. Not long after Ed Parker and Jimmy Woo met, they agreed to write a book together. Because Jimmy was not fluent in English and Ed was a college graduate, Ed was to do all the writing and Jimmy’s contribution was to supply the majority of the information (surely Jimmy was far more knowledgeable about the “secrets” of Chinese karate). So that the two could work closely together, Ed arranged for Jimmy to stay in Ed’s home in Pasadena. Throughout the duration of the writing, Ed supplied Jimmy with room and board, and may have paid him a small living expense. In return, because Ed was busy writing the book, which I know from personal experience as a professional writer is sufficiently time-consuming, Jimmy agreed to help with the teaching at the Pasadena school. For a considerable time, theirs proved to be a good working relationship. This changed, however, around the time the book was finished. Although I have no personal knowledge of the nature of their disagreement, I am well familiar with the reality that such disagreements do occur, especially in the absence of a clear cut written contract. Unable to agree, the two parted company, most likely with the understanding that their disagreement would be worked out at a later date, hopefully without the necessity of a civil lawsuit. Jimmy Woo moved to North Hollywood where he opened a small Tai Chi school along with a half dozen or so of Ed students whom Jimmy had been teaching for some time at the Pasadena school and who chose to continue training with Jimmy. With regard to any resolution of Ed Parker and Jimmy Woo’s disagreement over the book, I have no knowledge of this, although I’m not aware of any lawsuit being filed. As an aside, knowing the nature of the book and the cost of publishing a run of hard bound copies, my sense is that no royalties were earned. As an important aside, I would like to respond to the notion that Ed Parker fooled Jimmy Woo into traveling to Hollywood where Ed then kicked Jimmy out of the car and left him, for all intents and purposes, homeless and penniless. In my view, I highly doubt that this occurred, the reason being quite simple and plausible. Ed Parker was a smart man who had graduated college with a degree in sociology. That being the case, if he had done to Jimmy Woo what has been alleged in this thread, Jimmy could have totally destroyed the reputation of Ed Parker among the powerful Chinese martial arts communities in Los Angeles and San Francisco, which, from a business standpoint if nothing else, would have been the kiss of death. Ed Parker was far too intelligent to have made such a reckless move. To the contrary, what has been widely documented is that shortly before their split, a group of students at the Pasadena school had agreed to pool their money and finance the lease of the school that Jimmy Woo eventually opened on Hollywood Boulevard and, I’m fairly certain, lived in for many years thereafter. I hope this helps to answer Al Case’s initial question.

  253. The Bas Ruten/Joe Rogan comments are spot on. The Gracie vs Kenpo fight speaks volume. But the Kung Fu guy vs gangster in many ways says the most. After he does his BIG Kung Fu salutation and they actually clash all his Kung Fu went right out the window. His punches looked like a totally unschooled person, but he caught the guy with what I would call a “lucky punch.” Kung Fu guy was flailing like any untrained person in the street and once they got in range he looked no different that the gangster guy. Which slides into Matt Thornton- you play like you practice, and if 70 to 80% of your training is on katas and techniques against motionless people you CANNOT FIGHT MOVING OPPONENTS!!!! Non-contact sparring diminishes your skills so you spend 100% of your time on things that do not work in real time.
    A full-contact fighter can alter and shorten their strikes. A non-contact fighter CANNOT LENGTHEN THEIR STRIKES- IT DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY!!! Their hits will be just like Kung Fu guy- LUCK.

  254. Rainer Schulte

    Mr. Robert Libby,
    your friends translation is probably as good as your Kenpo. I did not talk about MY Electricity. You would not know anything about this. I do remember most of the individuals you mentioned. I do not remember a bad dude like you. You must have been on the bottom of the Totem Pole. >>And Ed never told me to “stay away.” Have Tatum say that to my face and see how long he is vertical.>> WOW, quite a statement. He is in CA, why don’t you go see him.
    Have you ever finished kindergarten?

  255. Yes Rainer, I have finished kindergarten and I am quite well read and have a college degree. So then explain to me how this guy collapses, loses consciousness, and all you did was touch the side of his head and neck?
    You see Rainer, when you literally call a man a liar they get pissed. As to the “totem pole”, no, I do not have a high degree black belt, but I can take a punch. No, I do not know all the forms, but I can ACTUALLY hit someone. Unlike you and the vast majority of unproven posers I know how to fight for real. I taught at PFS of Ridgecrest for 2 years- 1999 to 2001. So if I am considered good enough to be the main teacher at a Paul Vunak affiliate, and a Full Instructor under Vunak named Kevin Sheldon says I am good enough, and totally respects my fighting skills and knowledge, and considered me his equal I have little to prove to you. You see in PFS we actually box, kickbox, grapple, and play for real. We do not play “tag” and do meaningless techniques on immobile people, nor do we do forms. If you doubt what I am saying please contact Duane Yoshito Walden at No Way Martial Arts in Los Angeles. He is a Senior Full Instructor under Vunak and the regional director for PFS, and he used to call me his seifu. I trained him while in Chico, Calif.
    So I guess I am respected on a “totem pole” that matters, the PFS one. And Hartsell had deep respect for Vunak. As to Tatum. let him contact me. He would be little challenge.

  256. Tom, I will further elaborate on what you have addressed in regards to the Parker/ Woo relationship. I will leave out some details that may be provocative.
    Sometime around early 1960 it was arranged by one of Lau Bun’s students for EP and some of his students which included Rich Montomery and James Ibrao to visit Lau Bun’s school and T. Y. Wong’s school in San Francisco. It was at this time that EP met Mr. Woo . At that time EP invited some of Lau students and Mr. Woo to visit him in Pasadena. It was during this visit that Mr. Woo was invited to return and stay so that they could write a book. To the best of my knowledge Mr. Woo never had a problem expressing himself in English. He spent nearly 4 years in the Navy,1941-45. His writing style while being very precise was not smooth. Mr. Woo did the research and would dictate to EP who did the typing. In the evenings at the studio while EP was teaching, Mr. Woo would do rewrites. At this time, Mr. Woo also helped EP construct some of the Kenpo forms and taught EP some Gung Fu basics and possibly 2 Chinese sets that were never incorporated into Kenpo. After about 6 months, Mr Woo began teaching Gung Fu to the advanced class. Make no mistake these guys at one time were good friends. Mr. Woo advised EP on a number of things. Though some of the advice may have not have been in the best interets of EP’s vision of a commercial martial arts school. Mr. Woo was very old school. The problem with their relationship was that they were both alpha males and I suspect that Leilani Parker didn’t care for Mr. Woo. Over time their relationship became distant and Mr. Woo was going to go back to San Francisco where he had a wife and family. EP and Mr. Woo separated after Mr. Woo declined to sign the publishing agreement because he felt that the agreement was unfair to both himself and EP and he held hope for a better deal. When Mr. Woo was about to return to San Francisco he was asked by some of EP students to stay and open a school. His 1st school opened on Hollywood Blvd and Western Ave. it was called Academy of Kung Fu Karate. EP lost most of his black and brown belts as well as several intermediate and beginning students. They never saw or talked to each other again. When I spoke with Mr. Woo about this I got the impression that he missed the relationship that they once had.

  257. Thanks, Michael, for elaborating on Ed Parker and Jimmy Woo’s relationship. You unquestionably were very close to Mr. Woo and knew him far better than I did. I believe you’re correct about his command of English. I do now recall when I spoke with him over the phone in 2000 when writing the first Kenpo journey book with Joe Hyams that I had no trouble understanding him. Thanks again.

  258. A friend sent this YouTube video link that I enjoyed watching.

  259. Oops, correction. Mr. Woo joined the U.S. Navy in 1942. It was Dec. 8th 1941 that Mr. Woo went to join the U.S. Marines but left when told he would never be used in combat.

  260. Mr. Robert Libby,
    All you have to do is go to some of the Seminars happening around the world to show these “incompetent” Kenpo People how it is done. I have seen your Video and have to agree with some of your points, but it looks like you did not get the meaning about System and Style. The style is according to your mental and physical ability and NOT “this is how it has to be done”. You have to be able to alter, change, add, insert or delete when necessary. (Street or Gym)
    Sir, You talk about “real” Street fighting! Have you walked the Streets of Karachi, Lahore, Sialkot, Peshawar, Jalalabad? The Streets of Cairo, Luxor? or similar places to name just a few. Well I have, and many more bad places. And I can prove it! Have you been shot, stabbed and sliced? If you can say YES, I can and WILL respect you. If NO you are just another loudmouth. I am 75 years old and still go to Seminars to display MY STYLE of Kenpo. It served me well and without it I would not be here to talk about it.

  261. I do not feel I have to go to a seminar for a challenge as someone like Steve Shaffer would have me arrested. And I have chosen off Ed Parker to fight- he hid, chose off Ron Wilstein to a real fight, didn’t show up as he “pulled his groin muscle”, and asked Steve Shaffer to accept my challenge and gave him all possible advantages and he chickened out. I backed a Kenpo black belt against a fence one time as he insulted me and the first words out of his mouth were “I’ll sue you if you touch me.” He talked tough too.
    As to “danger”, I have lived in the Golden Triangle for 12 years, not just visited. It is a haven for Burmese, Chinese, and Thai mafias. The highway near us is called “the methamphetamine super-highway.” It is also a major area for heroin, human trafficking, and gun running. I have had too many fights to count and had people go after me with knifes, machetes, and clubs. Now I am not telling Ed Parker type bullshit stories here. A couple of serious issues helped me to win- often times the people coming after me were blind drunk, and I had 2 large police dogs that saved my ass. I also carry a 3 foot piece of pipe and know how to use it, and have had to use it. Things get so crazy here that three 16 year old girls on meth-amphetamines tried to rob me with a teeny tiny knife while I had the dogs and pipe. Even the dogs were confused.
    As to altering or adapting your style, it cannot be done unless you use moving opponents. In the video I saw you in, although very very short, you did techniques on a still person. I NEVER do techniques on still people unless it is for beginners, and after that all people are in motion; otherwise, you are doing “dead training” and it is useless.

  262. A few closing thoughts. First, a couple of edits: The Lucy Show was taped in 1961, not 1967, and two, I am not a tenth degree black. I was a fourth when Ed Parker passed, and 50 years later I’m a seventh. A word about Larry Hartsell. Larry and I were close friends for many years. I was training at the first SM school when he started his Kenpo journey in the winter of 1963. We became instant friends. I arranged his going away dinner the night before he left for Viet Nam. He was the best man at my marriage ceremony to Linda Lee. At no time in all the years I knew Larry did he ever once speak unkindly or disrespectfully about Ed Parker. In fact, at the wedding reception the two got along quite well. Regarding Bob Libby challenging Ed Parker to a fight, I think it is wrong to assume that Ed Parker was a coward because he did not agree to the fight. To the contrary, it’s possible that he was heading out the door en route to meet Libby but decided against it at the pleadings of his wife. After all, Ed had five kids, owned property, and a reputation of being a master of the martial arts. Getting into a fight with a kid who is barely out of high school would have put a great deal at risk. That aside, over the course of his lifetime, Ed Parker was challenged to a fair share of fights that he walked away from, as was Bruce Lee and many other martial arts masters. Walking away doesn’t necessarily make a man a coward. Next topic: Bob Libby’s knowledge of Kenpo, as well as his rank and file, are relatively easy to confirm one way or the other. For those who are interested, there are individuals still living who were around during those early years. That said, I can state that everyone I spoke with confirmed that when it came to Bob Libby’s fighting prowess, he was known as a ferocious fighter who thumped with many of the best Kenpo fighters of the day. About Ed Parker: although an imperfect man like all of us, most would agree that over the course of his lifetime he enriched the lives of hundreds of thousands of people worldwide. Two years before he died, I produced a Tribute to Ed Parker that was held at the Bonaventure Hotel in Los Angeles. It was a semi-formal dinner and show that was attended by a couple thousand guests, many of them celebrities. Dan Inosanto cancelled a seminar so that he could attend; and I still recall Chuck Norris’s closing comments at the podium (actually have it on film), of “I respect, admire, and love Ed Parker.” Two years later when Ed Parker passed, a couple hundred martial artists stood at his gravesite and respectfully delivered the Kenpo salute to the man they credit for making them better human beings. When those who have posted on this forum arrive at their final hour (including myself), how many of us will have tributes given in our honor and a couple hundred people showing respect at our graves? Perhaps this is worth considering. In closing, please give thought to what you’re posting. These flurries of my Kenpo is better than yours, and I’m a bigger badass than you are, the war stories, and challenges of pistols at dawn are demeaning to all of us. Surely some of you would not want your children and grandchildren reading some of your posts. If, on the hand, continuing your battle serves some purpose in your lives, then do everyone a favor and take it private. I apologize if I appear to be judgmental. What I have shared is with respect and the best of intentions.

  263. Dear Tom, as per your prior advice, and having read this, let’s put the “I said he said bullshit” away. I’ll leave it at “I am glad I made contact with you again, accept your advice and friendship, and put it all behind me.” Let’s let sleeping dogs lie.
    I will do some more videos, but in an analysis sense to help people learn and avoid injuries.
    Sincerely,
    Robert B. Libby

  264. Amen!
    I believe that Mr. Bleecker through his “words of wisdom” has helped us all immensely.
    Thank you for helping us all to move on Mr. Bleecker.

  265. We’re all better off for turning this around. Bob, when you have a moment please drop me an email tombleecker at Gmail. Salute

  266. The sub-sub-culture called Kenpo will never be of enough importance to have a Uni hold the collective records of its history for real study — more’s the pity. The closet thing seems to be the Tracy’s whose website looks like it hasn’t been updated since 1998, where the articles are poorly written, and the conclusions tendentious.

    There are many questions of interest that should be answered. Is it not time that there be a “fearless and searching self inventory” in this thing of ours? The usual game of telephone that passes for history does not suffice. Here are a few questions I hope someone can answer for the sake of idle curiosity.

    > Did Ed Parker have any fights that we can document? If Leilani saw him splatter a sailor’s nose all over his white shirt, almost kill another sailor, and scare two more away, she might’ve written about it in letter or journal near the date of it’s occurrence. If any of the other Kenpo founders — the Emperado brothers, William Chow, etc. — saw him fight there might be letters, journals, or first-hand statements to living people. Certainly one of his seven fights that included 4 or more armed attackers would be documented somewhere.

    > Did Ed Parker give the Tracy brothers their black belts then later go around saying that he didn’t? If so, why?

    > Did William Chow really learn Kung Fu from his father and use that to insert circular motions into Mitose’s Kenpo? Chow had several brothers, if their father taught them Kung Fu then it should be easy to confirm or refute.

    > If Chow did not learn Kung Fu from his father, who started the lie that he did and for what purpose? Per the Tracy’s, Chow’s father got in a fight, performed so poorly that onlookers thought he was goofing around, then bit his opponent repeatedly in desperation. They use that episode as evidence that Chow did NOT know Kung Fu. That the onlookers thought he was goofing off signals to me that he might well have been trying the ridiculous Kung Fu movements then resorted to biting when they failed to work.

    > Why did Parker boot his star pupil Larry Tatum out? Was there disagreement about American Kenpo? Business dishonesty? No one seems to know anything. Was there not a single memo, letter, or public statement?

    > Why did Parker’s black belts leave him for Jimmy Wing Woo?

    > Why did Parker’s black belts leave him for Bruce Lee? I’d have done it too . . . but what reason(s) did those who left give?

    > Did Parker ever say why he asked Gene LeBell to take the Milo Savage fight? Beyond the laughable “he didn’t want Savage killed” by a badass Kenpoist. Why didn’t Parker take the challenge himself?

    > When and why did the wearing belt knots on the side become mandatory? Was it indeed a rip-off of Mormon temple rituals? The theory that it’s from the Japanese tradition of a student moving the knot to his front when he was ready to challenge the Sensei to a fight does not ring true.

    > Anyone have footage of James Mitose practicing Kenpo?

    > Anyone have footage of Chow beyond the 20 seconds of him demonstrating in California in the early 1980s?

    > Are there any first-hand, contemporary accounts of Chow’s reportedly many fights?

    > For all the insistence by some EPAK pracitioners that theirs is a complete martial art that includes ground fighting and grappling, is there any evidence whatsoever that Parker even thought about ground fighting? (Side note: it’s simultaneously hilarious and embarrassing when Kenpoists claim the “complete art” rubbish and say they just didn’t notice the profound ground fighting in the system until they’d practiced for 30 years.)

    > How much did Parker’s Mormon faith influence his Kenpo? He apparently believed God “inspired” him and sent “intelligence flowing though” him. Did he believe Jesus revealed the techniques? “Put a hammer fist to the nose after the block, thus saith the Lord.”?

    > Could the belief that his techniques were Divinely revealed by the reason Parker didn’t seem to think he should test them on resisting opponents?

    > Whose face, besides Parker’s, appears on the cover of “The Journey”? It looks like Huk Planas. Was EP Jr making a statement about his father’s successor?

    > Is there any mention in Parker’s personal papers about Sub-Level 4?

  267. As I promised I am not jumping on EP, but the changes came around 1972-3 as far as the knot being on the side, at least at Santa Monica. I technically do not know whose idea it was. When I was at Santa Monica black belts did not have to turn their knot to the side, but lower belts did. There was a rumor that a lower ranked black belt was going to have to put his knot to the side if a higher rank was there. I know this entire concept was not popular with the “old timers.”
    The other bizarre part was the bowing all the time. Nobody had ever instructed me on this concept when I returned, but it drove me NUTS!!! If there were 10 guys in the corridor I got bowed to 10 separate times, and not just a head bob like we used to do, but the whole shield/sword cat stance salute. I one day said “I will hit the next person who bows to me- once when I get in is more than enough.” So if say I was coming out of my office a green belt would bow to me formally, and as I was leaving the bathroom 2 minutes later he would bow formally again. It was very “cultish” or militaristic, and it always had this very forceful “SIR!!!” with it. One guy did the ENTIRE Kenpo salute to me at a supermarket while I was with my girlfriend and said “Mr. Libby Sir, is there anything I can do for you?” I was mystified and embarrassed, and my girlfriend thought he was nuts.
    As to the Mormon thing, and rumors of racism that have been mentioned on other sites, I never once heard Ed talk about his faith, but I knew he was a Mormon. And I never heard him make a racist remark. I also never saw him drink coffee or alcohol.
    As far as I knew Ed did give the Tracys black belts. I have never met them and I always thought of them as the “Kenpo guys in Northern California.”
    I believe the people that went to Bruce Lee did so because he was just so damn good, and he taught personally a lot. I can say that I was only taught by Ed for say 2-3 hours in 4 years. But he did have 4 schools, and Bruce had one. When I was at the IMB in the 70s I was always taught by Dan Inosanto or Richard Bustillo. I very fondly remember Richard pulling me aside and counseling me- he said “you are always trying to land bombs. You have to sit back more, pick your shots, and relax; then you will last longer.” He was right.
    As to ground fighting there was none. I learned two ground techniques from Scott Loring in a regular class. One for a “school boy pin”, and a different one for a side headlock. I did learn a lot of grappling from Larry Hartsell, but that was not taught in regular classes. I did teach a few people some grappling in private, but never paid for it.
    I personally do not feel that a valid history can be written for many martial arts. There has been too much time, too many stories, way too much ego, and many have far too much money to lose.
    As to a successor- my vote would go for Huk. That is just my opinion and may be wrong.
    I had heard a rumor as to why Tatum was bounced, but it is just that- a rumor, so I will not repeat it. I also do not believe it.
    I hope this helps.

  268. As most martial artists familiar with “The Journey” know, I am the book’s publisher. Regarding the front cover, Ed Parker is not featured, nor is any other identifiable person. The martial artist who is pictured on the cover represent “everyman” martial artist.

  269. >”Regarding the front cover, Ed Parker is not featured, nor is any other identifiable person.”

    Actually, he does. Ed Jr. is just an even better artist than you realize. How else to explain that the publisher of a book covered with his art didn’t see it?

    Hint: look at the clouds for 2 faces. One is clearly Ed Parker Sr. The other face is open to interpretation. They’re very subtle.

    When you see them please ask EP Jr. whose is the second face and congratulate him on being such a fantastic artist.

  270. >”I personally do not feel that a valid history can be written for many martial arts. ”

    You might, sadly, be right. Though you’d think that because
    – our pertinent time frame goes back only a century
    – film and audio have existed for that entire time
    – near universal literacy for the pertinent times & places and paper & pens are cheap
    – newspapers, police reports, magazines, etc. have existed in spades for that time

    we’d have a better idea about our history. Instead we have rumors generated with the telephone game for history; or maybe “history”. It reminds me of this scene from the Sopranos. tinyurl.com/lartvam (definitely NSFW!)

    Your answer answers some of my questions. Thanks.

    I’ll keep an eye on your Youtube channel. If you write about your experiences or views, I’ll read it if you put the link on your Youtube. Honest inquiry is not feuding or bashing and should be tolerated. Inquiry does not become dishonorable because some of the people investigated are deceased.

  271. “Former Kenpo,” would you care to share your name? As to the cover of “The Journey,” I can assure you that there is no secret artwork or messages. The only subtle image on the front cover is the dragon. If Ed Parker’s son wanted to share any of his views, he could have done so inside the book, as he was the primary source of his father’s chapter (“Founder”) and the history chapter. Had Edmund wanted to make a statement, I most likely would have allowed it.

  272. Bob Libby, if you sent an email to the address I posted, I didn’t receive it. Perhaps you misspelled my surname and inadvertently left out the “c”? Anyway, the address is tombleecker @ gmail . com

  273. For Tom Bleecker:
    Is the Karate Connection course good for self-defense?
    As a respected source I thought I might get your insight.
    Need to learn at my apt in between college classes and video is only way.
    The school only has a Japanese class(I don’t like it).
    I am torn between Krav Maga and the KC condensed kenpo style.
    Thank you for answering my question.

  274. Kenny, the Karate Connection is an excellent source for learning American Kenpo. As you most likely know, it was founded by EPAK’s most senior practitioner Chuck Sullivan and Chuck’s partner Vic LeRoux, another Kenpo old-timer and elder.

  275. >”I can assure you that there is no secret artwork or messages. The only subtle image on the front cover is the dragon.”

    Mr. Bleecker, the images are there. It’s plain day after you first see it, but not as large as the dragon and even more understated.

    I’m not implying that it’s a “secret”, just subtly blended. Being a gifted artist who imbues his work with depth and symbolism is a good thing.

    My questions were just a matter of curiosity about an interesting piece of art, not an attempt at muckraking.

  276. Former Kenpo (still no name?), let’s just leave it at you see images in the clouds that I don’t. This goes out to the handful of people who have been posting on this board: there are several excellent EPAK forums on the Internet. If you’re seriously interested in broadening your base and belong to Facebook, I strongly suggest that you join the group “Kenpo, Past, Present, and Future.” There are other excellent Kenpo pages on Facebook, as well as several other good sites outside Facebook.

  277. >”Former Kenpo (still no name?), let’s just leave it at you see images in the clouds that I don’t.”

    Here’s a thread from another board with plenty of people talking about it.
    http://www.martialtalk.com/threads/the-journey.10895/

    So we’ll just have to, as a matter of objective fact, leave it at I’m right and you’re wrong.

    This is a message board and pseudonyms are the norm. Welcome to the interwebz.

    Enjoy your search for the picture of EP & unverified other. Be sure to call EP jr. when you see them and congratulate him on his artistic abilities.

  278. >” Is the Karate Connection course good for self-defense?”

    Kenny, the short answer is a resounding no, but not because Messrs. Sullivan or Leroux are not skilled Kenpoists or teachers.

    The reason it will fail you if you need to defend yourself is because of the method of teaching and practice. This link explains the problem well — goo.gl/vIuLsg

    The same is true of any Krav Maga tapes you are thinking of buying.

    Practicing alone, and in static patterns at that, will not give you the understanding of timing, angles, or positioning that are so imperative to actual fighting. Moreover, the Karate moves are not particularly effective because they are not informed by actual experience. Have you ever seen a punch that was Karate blocked in boxing or mma? No, and there’s good reason for that: no one can pull it off on a resisting opponent.

    There are things that you can do that will most certainly improve your ability to defend yourself. If there there really isn’t a martial arts scene in your town, then the best thing you could do for your self defense abilities would be to get strong.

    Double or triple your strength and see if that doesn’t work magic for your abilities. You’ll hit much harder and throw your attacker around much more easily.
    startingstrength.com

  279. I’ve taken a hard look at this thread and agree with those who have pointed out that one person is using numerous names that follow an identical agenda. Personally, I have no interest in having a dialogue with a person who is unwilling to reveal their identity. I didn’t respond to this recent string of observations and statements because they are rehashing much of the old threads. They were boring then, and they’re boring now. I did, however, respond to the original question posed by the person who runs this site – and I believe that I gave a reasonable answer that was elaborated upon by Michael Chong. With regard to this alleged mysterious face on the cover of “The Journey” if a handful of people want to pursue it for whatever reason, that’s their decision. I can tell you as the publisher of the book, the subject has no relevance whatsoever to EPAK. Kenny, do yourself a big favor and before passing judgment on the Karate Connection, contact Chuck Sullivan and Vic LeRoux, who are both prominent and highly skilled martial artists, and direct your questions to them. As an aside, their system contains a great deal of reality training.

  280. Kenny, earlier in this thread I shared what I feel is an important observation that I’ve reached after studying and teaching the martial arts for more than 50 years, and that is if all you want to get out of the martial arts is to learn how to fight, you don’t need to spend years learning “the art.” All you need to do is instigate fights with the toughest thugs in your neighborhood and continue to do that for six months and you’ll get tough. Ginchin Funakoshi once stated, “The ultimate aim in the art of karate lies not in victory but in the perfection of the characters of its participants.” I wish you well on your journey.

  281. “With regard to this alleged mysterious face on the cover of “The Journey” . . . I can tell you as the publisher of the book, the subject has no relevance whatsoever to EPAK.” – Tom Bleecker

    Are you really getting pissy because I asked about a piece of art on a book you published? Am I misreading your tone? Do you feel wronged?

    I’ve provided you a link to a plethora of witnesses to the “alleged mysterious face” that includes written descriptions of where it’s located. For you to say alleged at this point is dishonest.

    My question was asked politely. My responses to your denials were polite, even complimentary to the artist (perhaps you misread my tone?). A reasonable response by you would be “Cool stuff. Thanks for letting me know.”

    If you feel wronged by a discussion of the cover art, take it up with EP Jr. After all, he’s the one who had the audacity to put it there – “Ya sumbich! Don’t ya dare work intricacies into art on muh book!”

    Nor did I imply that the cover art has an impact on EPAK. Neither do the portraits within the book, but is it OK with you for people to discuss them?

    For that matter the entire book has no impact in EPAK, which is at the end of the day a set of ideas related to H2H combat unaffected by a book about adherents to those ideas.

    “I’ve taken a hard look at this thread and agree with those who have pointed out that one person is using numerous names that follow an identical agenda.”

    My only posts have been under “Former Kenpo”.

    If you’re accusing me of sockpuppeting, you’re as mistaken about that as you were about yourself playing no part in the Parker / Libby feud or about no faces being on the cover of “The Journey”.

    My writing style doesn’t look like others’ here.

    Regarding an “identical agenda”, several people have expressed a different point of view. A perspective that has become increasingly common since Karate’s well publicized failure in actual combat beginning in 1993. A point of view that will become increasingly common as the older generations, raised on the faux-deadly oriental arts, die off: Martial arts shall continue to progress one funeral at a time.

  282. Former Kenpo (wink), with regard to your ongoing comments about the cover of “The Journey,” as I mentioned earlier, I have no intention of communicating with anyone who is unwilling to state their name. This is my last post, and I’ll leave you and all your other pseudo names with two thoughts: As I read through this thread I was reminded of a paragraph that is contained in my second book on Bruce Lee (“Unsettled Matters”), which is: “Academy award winning screenwriter Stirling Silliphant, himself a black belt, several decades later sadly reminisced. ‘The martial arts never did for Bruce what they did for me or other people. Bruce never achieved any calm out of the martial arts. The very thing that should have protected him, didn’t. He invited a lot of the slings that kept coming back at him. There’s enough trouble in life. Most of us duck it . . . At times Bruce seemed to welcome it.'” Secondly, this entire thread also reminds me of something Huk Planas once said. When a prospective student asked how long it takes the average person to make black belt, Huk replied “Average people don’t make black belt.” And it’s true – making black belt in American Kenpo is a long road and a tough journey. Most who start along that path don’t have the skills and character to earn a black belt. Rarely have I met anyone who has taken this defeat to heart, although, unfortunately the exceptions do exist. In closing, anyone who cares to communicate with me can do so by writing to my via the Gmail address I left (I’m not surprised that I haven’t heard from anyone). In sharp contrast, for those who choose to carry on with these masquerades on this thread and wage war against themselves are certainly welcome to waste their time doing so, but they will do so without my further participation.

    • Dear Tom, while in America I was swamped with my grand kids, but I will get an email off to you in a day or two- massive jet lag right now. I will be back in CA in about 4 to 5 months so maybe we cam visit for awhile. Are you still in the West LA area?

  283. Former Kenpo (wink), with regard to your ongoing comments about the cover of “The Journey,” . . .

    I’ve proven what I said about the artwork. You were mistaken about it at first, but now you’re just a liar.

    “I’ll leave you and all your other pseudo names . . .

    I have used only “Former Kenpo” ITT. If you’ll tell me what other names you think I’m using I’ll be happy to run the texts through online software and post the results showing no common authorship. It’s one of the miracles of this thing called the interwebz.

    Given that you “forgot” about your part in the Parker / Libby call (who could forget about his martial hero being challenged to a fight?) and lie about what I’ve proven about the faces on “The Journey”, your grasp on reality is tenuous, so accusations that I’ve been sockpuppeting this thread aren’t worth a pot of piss.

    Memory loss and agitation are symptoms of dementia: that might be why you got agitated at a polite question and just can’t seem to remember much of anything.

    “I have no intention of communicating with anyone who is unwilling to state their name.”

    >2015 whining about a cyber-plume on an internet forum.

    U mad bro? IDGAF. GTFO.

    You ought to move to Florida, eat the early bird specials, take 5-minutes to piss, and shout at kids to get off your lawn. Then reminisce about “the good ole days” where popular music really meant something and children were respectful to their elders.

    You’re just a liar looking for an escape. As for your surprise at no one emailing you, lemme help you out: you are dishonest, un-insightful, and refuse to answer any questions directed your way.

    Good riddance. ???(?_?)???

  284. wow… the total lack of respect shown here to kenpo elders,, is amazing.. of course its easy to insult behind a computer,,, usually when one lacks intellegant debate,, insults follow ..as evidenced here

  285. the total lack of respect shown here to kenpo elders,, is amazing — Kevin Harshman

    You’re referring to my exchange with Tom Bleecker? The disrespect was shown by him along with his dishonesty. Age does not give him license to accuse me of lying, lie himself, insult me, and storm off in a huff when he’s proven wrong.

    Read the exchange again. I politely asked a question and politely responded to his denials of it, going so far as to provide him a link to a plethora of witnesses to what I said and complimenting EP Jr. on his talents.

    After I proved Bleecker wrong he suddenly won’t talk to those using pseudonyms (as if he hadn’t thrice before), accuses me of sockpuppeting ITT, and storms off. All because I proved him wrong (politely). Things escalated because of Bleecker’s rudeness. A sane person would’ve just noted the art was as I said and thought it was cool to find a detail that had escaped his notice.

    Perhaps he was just embarrassed to have “assured” me “as publisher of The Journey” that I was wrong, only to have me prove him wrong; even if I did so politely.

    of course its easy to insult behind a computer . . .
    Objectively characterizing Bleecker’s behavior is not an insult, just fact.

    I’ve tried to stay out of the challenges, threats, and heated exchanges ITT, but when someone is repeatedly rude in response to polite, even complimentary, behavior it does not pay to turn the other cheek.

    “As is the attitude, so is the response.”, yes?

  286. After reading and rereading the posts on this thread I have concluded that some of you have nothing better to do than to gossip like old women.
    This is utterly disgusting behavior.
    Senior Martial Artists arguing with each other over lame history.
    Why is it that it mostly happens with the Kenpo guys?
    Not that it doesn’t go on in other systems and arts.
    I hope that the next time I come here I find conversations that will be of some benefit and less if none GOSSIP!
    And please do not jump all over me because I have respectfully stated fact.

  287. I had the greatest experience to train, learn and be promoted in the original Pasadena, CA school…the home of IKKA – Ed Parker 1978-1990. Many legendary Kenpoist walk thru 1705 E. Walnut doors. I will always have fond memories of Mr. Parker and his Kenpo Karate. Thank you GM Frank Trejo…one of the greatest martial artist who wore the IKKA Patch.

  288. It happens as Kenpo is now one of the largest systems and global. It also happens due to the passion and time that many of us have spent in it; therefore, many of us have some very strong opinions. But in fairness some very valid points were discussed and for many the air was cleared, so not just a gossip session.
    Good luck.

  289. This is the most sorry display of former Kenpo guys arguing about old stuff.
    I read every post and there does seem to be one or two guys commenting with different names.
    I bet not one of you would have bad mouthed Ed Parker if he were here now.
    And, why hasn’t Ed, Jr. said something to honor the old man?
    I do not care if Ed Parker was a good fighter or not.
    What I do know and care about is that the system works and has worked for me several times.
    The damage has been done and can never be undone.
    All the negative comments about Parker will live on this site just like his great legacy.
    Some of you here have “soiled” that legacy.
    And, for what purpose?

  290. The term “martial art” means war art. Your post is rather meaningless. And as to not saying this while Ed was alive- I chose him off and he folded. He would not fight mr one on one.

  291. I found this on a search of the internet re: Mills Crenshaw:
    Deseret News

    TAX WARRIORS MILLS CRENSHAW: `BATTLING FOR THE LITTLE GUY’

    By Elaine Jarvik, Staff Writer
    Published: Thursday, Nov. 3 1988 12:00 a.m. MST

    Mills Crenshaw was just another radio talk show host, interviewing podiatrists and fielding calls about UFOs, before he found the topic that would make him famous. As Crenshaw remembers it, the whole thing started with a call from a little old lady who complained that rising property taxes threatened to push her from her home.

    Now, 20 months later, that phone call has turned into a tax war, and Mills Crenshaw has emerged as its five-star general, the Patton of the airways.His talk show airs from 1 to 4 p.m. Monday through Friday on K-TALK, at the far left of the AM dial. Crenshaw himself leans closer to the right. He describes himself as an “enlightened conservative.”

    Other people use less generous terms. “They’ve been Bhagwanidized,” says Mayor Palmer DePaulis, referring to what he sees as Crenshaw’s guru-like effect on his listeners. “He’s full of sophism and rhetorical stuff and numbers that don’t compute,” charges the mayor. “But he’s so smooth. He’s very much at ease with people’s feelings. It makes great theater.”

    Numbers that don’t compute? echoes Crenshaw in disbelief. “The mayor’s projections sound like they’re out of an Isaac Asimov novel!”

    Armed with colorful analogies and charts full of figures, Crenshaw has become the most visible, and most controversial, proponent of the tax initiatives on the ballot Nov. 8. His opponents have even immortalized him with a bumper sticker: “If you need a cop, call Mills Crenshaw. Vote Against A, B, C.”

    Crenshaw put the sticker on his own sports car, crossing out the “against” and substituting “for.”

    Utah’s tax battle may be the first campaign of its kind to be planned and carried out on the radio. Tapes of those shows, monitored by his opponents, Taxpayers for Utah, have turned up examples of Crenshaw’s penchant for drama. According to Taxpayers for Utah, he has described their members as “paid political assassins” and “terrorists.”

    In September he was recorded as saying “I think some of the politicians we are hearing from now are the best argument in the world for retroactive abortions.” Crenshaw says now that those remarks were made “in jest.”

    Utah’s politicians aren’t laughing. They complain that Crenshaw should be put under scrutiny, too – for his involvement in an investment scandal in California in 1975.

    Crenshaw thinks it’s unfair when his opponents bring that up. `My company was a victim,” he says.

    The complicated case involved Crenshaw’s Gold and Silver Bullion Exchange Inc., whose 90 investors lost $366,000. Crenshaw says he himself was duped by a Colorado “con artist” who promised him $2 million profit and then failed to come up with the promised silver.

    Although he was originally charged with 30 felony counts, all but two of those charges were dismissed. He pleaded no contest to a charge of operating an unlicensed commodities exchange, and a charge of issuing a bad check for $30,000. The commodities charge, says Crenshaw, was a technical violation, because when he first began his business the commodities law was not on the books. He says the bounced check charge resulted from his lawyer’s advice to stop payment on a check he had written to a silver company he claims was owned by the Colorado con man.

    Crenshaw says he went through five years of “absolute hell” during this time. He says he ended up broke and divorced. He says his experiences with the law are why he now hates “injustice.” And it’s because he hates injustice, he says, that he is now fighting for The Little Guy. His opponents point to the irony that some of the investors who trusted him with their money in California were Little Guys too.

    Just a few years after his gold and silver problems, Crenshaw became a foot soldier in Howard Jarvis’s California tax insurgency, circulating petitions for Proposition 13. Crenshaw had grown up in California, where he attended Napa Valley High School. He graduated from Brigham Young University in marketing, later taught karate and became a radio talk show host, moved back to California, and then moved back to Utah in 1986.

    The once-portly Crenshaw has dieted off so much weight recently that he looks five or 10 years younger than he did when he began his tax crusade in 1987. He will not divulge his age but admits he is the grandfather of six.

    Disgruntled taxpayers have boosted Crenshaw’s radio ratings, and although it may be Merrill Cook they will vote for on Tuesday, it is Mills Crenshaw who is their buddy. No longer anonymous, he now has a difficult time going to the movies, he says, without folks coming up to him to tell him their stories.

    “I love these people,” he says.

  292. > When and why did the wearing belt knots on the side become mandatory? Was it indeed a rip-off of Mormon temple rituals?
    — Me

    Turns out that the belt on the side look comes, not from the Mormon temple rituals, but from the Kung Fu sash. Some systems even have men and women tie it on different sides.

    Video here goo.gl/drcswV

    The Tracy’s assertion that it was a rip-off of the Mormon temple rites, themselves a rip-off of the Mason’s ceremonies, turns out to be self-serving exaggeration (like so much in Kenpo).

  293. People are actually saying that Ed Parker could take on five guys armed with knives and pipes and he would beat them within seconds? With a UMP-45 at 50 feet maybe. Lol, this hero worship is laughable, people will believe the absolutely most absurd myth!

    • People are actually saying that Ed Parker could take on five guys armed with knives and pipes and he would beat them within seconds? — Chris

      Not only could he, they say, but that he did so on more than a half-dozen occasions and that if you question these feats of martial prowess then YOU must be delusional; after all, you never met the great man.

      Ed Parker has taken on a Cyrano de Bergerac status in the minds of Kenpoists; but instead killing 100 men with his sword, he beat his empty-handed and instead of a big nose, Parker just had a lousy haircut.

  294. Chris you met Mr. Parker?

  295. I have, and the very nature of your question exhibits exactly the stupidity of believing these crazy stories Chris is talikng about.

    • Mr. Libby,

      I tried to contact you on your Youtube channel. If you’re going to make more vids, I’m interested.

      If you’re interested in reaching Kenpo folk with them, then posting them on the KenpoTalk forum would be wise; however, there dozens of Mills Crenshaws will denounce you and challenge you to mortal combat and relatively few will be convinced no matter the video content.

      • I feel that Mills has so little credibility now that he is irrelevant. And even Steve Shaffer has come out with another response to my Clutching Feathers where he referred to Clutching Feathers. The whole presentation was disjointed and made little sense compared to his first arguments against my critique. The hard core Kenpo people have very little silid ground to stand on.
        Another issue is so many people feel that all martial artists should all be “spiritual” and never criticize another art. Well Bruce Lee did it, and we now have BAs Ruten and Joe Rogan jumping in. In a Paul Vunak video he shows a training hall of black belts and basically says “doesn’t this seem silly with what we know today?” And the answer is YES!!!! Thanks for the support.

  296. I will be making more videos in 3 to 4 days.

  297. I started with Ed Parker in 1972. I know Huk Planas, the Urquides brothers, were my referees in competition at The Long Beach Arena. I knew Frank Trejo, and Vic la Roux. Without their dedication and expert training I would have been dead long ago. They taught me how to defend myself. I will forever be in their debts. Ed Parker never said he made up the art, but he perfected it and was the best. RIP. Mr Ed Parker.

  298. Been training in Kenpo for several years and previous did Goju.
    Never took boxing, but feel that basic boxing hand techniques with Kenpo is a pretty solid combination for self-defense.
    As for Rogan…hell of a kicker.
    Bas and Paul legends.
    Ed Parker LEGENDARY!!!

  299. Harley Richards

    Wow this thread went on way tooooooooo long

  300. Harley Richards

    Actually I should add to that. Disrespecting a guy who’s long gone isn’t accomplishing much. I’ve studied and trained for close to 30 years but don’t consider myself very spiritual or philosophical for that matter. But for a bunch of guys in their 60’s to be talking shit and challenging each other to fight is pretty sad. Let it go gentlemen.

    • The thread indeed got heated, but it brought out plenty of insight
      •The story of how Gene LeBell came to accept the challenge to fight a boxer
      •The story from Milo Savage’s perspective (from Monfongo)
      •Confirmation from a 1st generation Black Belt that Parker claimed to have been in 7 fights against 4 or more armed attackers: this shows that Parker was personally telling tall tales and that they did not come from games of telephone afterwards
      •Confirmation that Parker backed down from a fight with a Kenpo black belt
      •Video debate/demos about certain Kenpo techniques and whether they’re akin to boxing
      •Videos of Ed Parker moving during both the prime of his life and in middle age and discussion about whether he was a prodigy or merely a gifted promoter.
      •Sr. Kenpoist and well-known author showed himself to be a dishonest buffoon
      •Discussion of the formalization of the EP KK system
      •Kenpo people were exposed to ideas from pragmatic systems

      My biggest epiphany from this thread: Parker, for all his fame, wasn’t good at Karate. I remember seeing a video of him (he died before I entered Kenpo) and noting to my teacher that his stances looked “different”. My teacher explained to me that Parker was just so good that his technique transcended traditional. Now, after the discussion of Parker’s personal traits, and others sharing my initial impressions of his videos, I see that my teacher was just blinded by hero worship into accepting that Parker’s sloppy motion was just the epitome of martial efficiency.

      I had long ago accepted that Karate was misguided in techniques and training methods, but still thought Parker was good at it. Now I see that my initial impression was correct—decent brown belts move better than the Sr. Grandmaster!

      You’re right that we could’ve gone w/o the challenges & insults, but the resulting insights were worth reading through them. EPAK is a popular system and people rely on it for protection and fitness; this makes it, and its founder, a legitimate subject of discussion no matter how long Parker has been dead.

  301. Steve Shaffer

    Contrary to what ‘Former Kenpo’ has posted on this thread, the American kenpo by Ed Parker that I train in, begins and ends with basics.
    Basics is a major division in kenpo. The other two being self-defense, and the third being freestyle. Basics is so important that without a solid foundation, little progress is made learning kenpo. Everything hinges on the student having a grasp of basics. Good stances, strikes, blocks, parries, kicks, punches, all flow from a proper foundation of basics. Your forms, techniques and sets will look terrible without solid basics.
    Ed Parker thought so highly of basics that he devoted a good deal of space in his Volume 2 of the series entitled Infinite Insight into Kenpo. If you’ll take the time to read the chapters 4 & 5, that are devoted to basics you begin to see how important stances other basics, help provide a platform for excellent forms, and great self- defense. Ed Parker wrote, “The importance of basics, cannot be over emphasized”. (p.31 Vol 2, Infinite Insights).
    The kenpo system insists that basic stances are so important, the system even has a couple of forms devoted to just stances called Stance Set 1 & 2. In conclusion, just the opposite is true regarding the criticisms of kenpo basics.
    In case you don’t have Vol 2, here’s the table of contents.
    Chapter 1…….Introduction
    Chapter 2……History
    Chapter 3……Physical Preparedness
    Chapter 4…..Basics
    Chapter 5…..Division of Basics
    Chapter 6…..Stances (p. 76 has Ed Parker checking on the height of the knee to floor as the kenpo student is in a wide kneel)
    Volume 3 of Infinite Insights, further develops the concept of basics. Chapters 2-5 of Vol 3, provide excellent material to understanding how basic stances and strikes and the proper execution of them, help the student gain better understanding on how to perform the kenpo techniques.
    My initial kenpo instructor was so adamant about having a solid basic foundation, that it was the number 1 consideration before anything else. It was rule #1. ’Establish your base’ which meant for us to have a good stance, a solid foundation to in which to launch our techniques.
    If you’ve been taught the cycle of considerations, you’ll recall that a strong stance leads to a good defense, and a strong offense, and so forth. Having the attitude of a warrior is critical, then know your environment, followed by a good position (your stance), which weapons to use, blocks, know your range, how to maneuver, and lastly, hit your target. All of these considerations are nothing more than applied basics.

    • Contrary to what ‘Former Kenpo’ has posted on this thread, the American kenpo by Ed Parker that I train in, begins and ends with basics. — Steve Shaffer

      After re-reading my posts, I can confirm that never did I say that EPKK has no basics. Nor would I say such a thing, for it’s difficult to think of anything from keyboarding to karate to surfing to driving that doesn’t have basics.

      If you’re referring to my saying that Ed Parker wasn’t that good at karate then mea culpa. Watch a few videos of him on Youtube (use Chrome and set it at 1/4 speed) and see if you’re still in awe.

  302. Dear Former Kenpo;
    My discussion on basics was an answer to your implication against Ed Parker’s performance. It’s not just you I’m responding too, but anyone who reads yet stays on the sidelines that maybe interested in this subject. Your approach is that if you tear down and disparage Parker, then by association the system is torn down. I reject that theory. A few posted videos doesn’t cut it compared to his decades of work and teaching. If you’re referring to the Lucille Ball video from the 60’s, you should’ve realized that Parker is doing all the work to make the actors look good in the entire segment. Had you been on set back then, I would have cautioned you to stay out of his way.
    You may want to view his fight scene from Pink Panther, (1975) taking out the ‘assassins’ as Mr. Chong, a great scene that demonstrates not only Mr. Parker’s power, but his basics as well. There’s many more out there, just search using ‘Ed Parker Demo’, and they all get queued up for you.
    It’s amusing that people who nothing about Ed Parker kenpo, think they can comment seriously on Ed Parker while never actually taking the time to seek out competent instruction from the many top instructors that have trained with Mr. Parker, who are still actively working all over the country, either at the local school level or at the national seminar/camp level.
    Kenpo has grown and evolved tremendously over the decades. Even Ed Jr. in a article in Black Belt, discussed how Ed Parker evolved. The Ed Parker of the ’60s, was not the Ed Parker of the 70’s, who was not the Ed Parker of the ’80s. Those students who were part of those decades were part of an evolving system that continues to this day.

  303. Steve, your basics are so “good” that you cannot even handle a basic hair grab. Maybe someday this fog you are in will go away. I am in the process of posting another video qand I aggress how to deal with three one-handed hair grabs.
    You are not oggd enough to wear a black belt and vertainly fit to teach, and I say that on the video.
    Whenevr you are confronted about EPAK you always run to manuals and termino;ogy. Face it- I would have slaughterd when I was a 15 year o;d green belt. So just as Ed was never fir to wear his rank, nor are you.

  304. Kenpo Student

    As a student of the martial arts for 30 years now, and a Kenpo student for the past 18 years, I find it unfortunate that in 2015, we’re still trying to tear down each other because of the path of martial art that we chose. I respect Mr. Libby and his point of view, I respect Mr. Shaffer and his point of view, I respect Mr. Crenshaw, Mr. Bleecker, and everyone else’s point of view that has posted here. You all have valid points. What I don’t understand is the negativity (other than the personal conflict between Mr. Libby and Mr. Parker, which I believe is part of his rationale for not liking Kenpo, but I could be wrong).

    From what I read above, Mr. Libby feels that the majority of Kenpo is useless. His original stance is that he didn’t want to see other people make a mistake and study Kenpo and have it fail them if they ever need it (I respectfully disagree). Mr Libby also has a personal issue with Mr. Parker. Others have stated that Kenpo does work for them. Some believe that Mr. Parker was a fraud, others believe that Mr. Parker was a genius and a good man. From there (or there abouts) the personal attacks began.

    From my journey of learning the martial arts, I would like to share what I have learned, and my apologies in the beginning for sounding Mr. Miyagi-ish because I know what I am about to say is going to be the cheesiest of cheesey. I have learned that being proficient in the martial arts has little to do with the art, and a lot to do with the student (after all, the human body can only perform so many types of kicks, punches, and blocks). If you studied Kenpo and feel that it won’t work for you, then maybe Kenpo isn’t the path for you. Maybe Jiu-jitsu, or Shotokan, or Muay Thai might suit you better. It’s all about how you, the student, trains (again, I know I’m preaching to the choir, but bare with me). For me personally, I love Kenpo. It’s in my blood. It’s worked for me in the streets because my instructor refuses to let us train half assed, and I as the student refuse to hold my arm out there while my partner performs a ton of strikes on me (save for the what-if teaching phase). If my instructor catches his students doing that, those students have to go outside to the parking lot and do 25 pushups on their knuckles while every other student stands there and counts. As you can imagine, it doesn’t happen often at all.

    I have also learned that any one style isn’t the be all and end all of the martial arts, so for the past 2 years I have cross trained in BJJ and Muay Thai. I received my fourth and final stripe on my white belt in BJJ, and I’m having a great time with it. I am choosing to learn as many different styles as I can so that my knowledge isn’t limited (paraphrasing Bruce Lee).

    My final thought that I would like to share with you is two sayings that my Kenpo instructor often uses. The first is “Fear none, respect all”. That phrase is loaded and it isn’t just about the martial arts, it’s about life. The second is that the we should view the martial arts like it’s a mountain. We are all trying to climb this mountain to reach it’s peak (becomming the best that we can be). On this mountain are different paths. One path is called Kenpo, the other Jiu-jitsu, the next Shotokan, and so on and so on. All of these paths will lead us to the top and we’re not bound to any one particular path. What we are bound by is the respect we should have for other’s choice of paths (regardless if we feel that path will “work” or not). We are brothers and sisters in this journey, and we need to look out for each other in a positive and respectful way, not tear each other down. That is the spirit of the martial arts.

    Again, my apologies for the drug store psychology as I know most of you are my elders (I’m 38, started the martial arts around 8).

  305. Libby,
    Right on cue…a reply against basics and more personal attacks on me and my 30+years in martial arts. Yes, I’ve acquired an extensive library of martial art books, magazines, manuals, seminar notes from many notable instructors who I have personally benefited from. Please go back to your cave.

  306. The line I keep hearing is it is not the art, but the student- sort of true. If I take student on a 1 to 10 scale who is a 7 and put him with say Paul Vunak and put a student who is a 9 physically in Kenpo the Vunak 7 will clobber the Kenpo 9. The efficacy of the art will greatly affect the outcome in the street, and that is where it counts.
    Now I will go back to my cave. But in my cave I teach proven concepts and not theoretical hyperbole and bullshit.

  307. Interesting theory.

    • Not a theory Steve. Unlike you I can fight and teach. I do not waste my time with bullshit forms and dead techniques on stationary people. A man who would not accept my challenge and proved himself a craven coward should simply shut tge fuck up.

  308. Read a lot of this. Info. I am nobody special at all. Just a guy who spent of 13 plus years taking the art we call Kenpo. For what its worth, I hold all of you in high regard. Without you this art would never progress or be passed down. I wish I could have met Mr. Parker. I understand Mr. Libby when you say some techniques will not work in a practical fight as its hard to get some of them off. Therefore, You use basic perries and punches kicks ect. However, Kenpo does work….I have used it. I didn’t freeze. That’s why we are all taught many different ways to get out of one attack. If one way does not work another technique will. After all these are just letters to an alphabet. We have to make the sentences during combat. By the way im a Tracys guy. Im from NY
    Thanks Dennis

  309. Basics, stamina, strength, and cohones-BAD ASS.
    Kenpo is ok, but Kajukenbois better.
    Don’t care about Parker, but respect his pioneering the arts.
    Better old school legends in NYC.
    Peter Urban, Gary Alexander, Pete Siringano,
    and many others.

  310. I agree with kenpo student & balogh. It is about the student & how they react in a real world situation. All these kenpo elders helped shape the fighting arts we know of today. But as one poster said earlier kenpo from the 60’s is different from 70’s, 80 ‘ s 90 etc. My kempo instructor Sifu John Taynton in Brisbane Australia (look him up on Google Shaolin Kempo) often said MA should evolve not revolve. And how about the preservation of the art? Forms & other training methods are not useless they are part of an overall system & hold significant traditional & cultural meaning. When we bow in to training session we first bow to the masters & founders of kempo which is to say the Shaolin masters through to Ed Parker & so on. I doubt anyone is going apply a shaolin tiger tail punch in a real world situation so does that mean we shouldnt practice it? It was part of Shaolin basics along with many other punches, kicks, stances etc. Also self defense was one part of a complete system, definitely not the be all & end all. In fact my school split in half because our Shihan believed our self defense system didnt need any tweaking and we had ” Enough on our plate learning the system as it was”. Well if we all thought like that we’d never move forward. I appreciate mr Libby’s concern about putting people at risk, I to share this concern but an individual should be able to make a choice as to what is appropriate for the individual. Some people are stupid, there’s nothing you can do about that. In my case I was overweight & needed to do something posetive, I did a lot of research & decided Kempo was for me because I didn’t just want learn to fight, I wanted to improve my life & Kempo helped me do that. As one poster said ‘Fear none but respect all’ is a great self defense. As a side note I actually gave up Kempo to pursue Chen style Tai Chi Chuan because I felt & proved that I could fight just fine with the base that Kempo provided. Also interestingly enough Bruce Lee was developing skills & heading down a path that Chen style Tai Chi Chuan had been doing for over 500 years. Check out Wang Hai Jun who is Grandmaster Cheng Chen Lei’s top student, he took real life challenges for the grandmaster for over twenty years. Several eyewitnesses attest he rarely had to throw more than one punch to finish an opponent, after all Tai Chi Chuan means grand ultimate fist. Respect to all Martial Arts, at the end of day if your still moving your doing something right.

  311. I was curious…. I used to take lessons from an old kenpo guy, I guess he used to be called sterling peacock. Anyways he related a story that he and end went to a boxing gym one time, were end did get in the ring with a boxer and was knocked out. Sterling said that he guessed the boxer didn’t know he was missing with…

    • Assuming that
      1. “end” = Ed Parker
      2. It was the boxer who got knocked out
      ????

      We’re to believe that a chubby, middle-aged man who never sparred, was a nobody in Hawaii, and whose pre-set techniques were pure slop got into a boxing ring and KTFO’d a trained fighter?

      That’s far more believable than “end” Parker’s own tales of beating 4 or more armed assailants on 7 occasions all in a matter of seconds; still not bloody likely, but nevertheless far more believable.

      As a general rule, you should disbelieve the legends that spring up around Ed Parker, and other venerated figures. I heard one fool claim that the Gracies withdrew their $100K challenge from Ed Parker because they were in such awe of the Great Sr. Grandmaster from Honolulu— pure rubbish. See what happened when a fit Kenpo man took the challenge (link below).
      goo.gl/d6LraO

      Here is a demo by End and his students. Note that he moves the worst of any of them, and it’s not like the students moved that well either.
      goo.gl/DX4ggB

  312. Sorry about that. Meant Ed, the person knocked out was Parker. I should know better than to type while half asleep. The boxer just didn’t realize how dangerous Parker was supposed to be. Also Sterling started kenpo in Pasadena in 1958, so this happened in the early 60’s and Parker wouldn’t have been middle aged yet. But in any case Parker lost. I don’t think Sterling was lying.

  313. Curious as to the video ‘Former Kenpo’ suggested be watched, I viewed it, and it’s Ed Parker’s Ireland visit while on a local TV show. Contrary to looking bad the students looked fine given their level of knowledge and being careful to not slip on the studio floor. Ed Parker also was careful about footing. It was a scripted demo. I guess no ones happy unless someone’s sent to the hospital.
    Also, there’s many old timers who have trained with and know about Ed Parker’s abilities from his early days. Seek these guys out and get first hand accounts of Ed Parker’s history. Plenty has has been written documenting Ed Parker’s history which I’ve posted months ago for anyone to confirm.
    The core curriculum techniques are patterns to get a student who in all likely hood has never been in a fight, an ideal approach to a given self-defense problem be it a grab, push, or punch. As the student progresses he/she moves to what if scenarios, and is challenged with learning to think and adapt quickly to changing circumstances.
    I suggest readers pick up Ed Parker’s Infinite Insights vol 1-5 to gain some background to American Kenpo.

  314. I have taken lessons from some senior’s, I left the organised art just before my second black test. I found that i couldn’t pull off the tech’s etc against resistance and I was usually one of the best guys in the room. It’s a fun system to practice but to be perfectly honest it is more paper tiger/kata dancers than actual fighters. I could go on for hours but that wouldn’t do much good. I just wish you guys would stop using the catch phrase of ” the ultimate in un armed self defense” because it really isn’t.

  315. Brandon,
    Your inability to be successful in Kenpo training rests on you. Had you amped up your energy based on the energy applied to you, the tech might’ve worked. I suppose you should’ve gone into full contact mode but that would’ve narrowed your training partners since they would be recovering from sustained injuries. I guess now that you’re doing something different congrats! You’ve reached the point of what Kenpo is all about — Quick, accurate and intense application of self defense. Your experience reminds me of a saying: ” before I learned karate a punch was a punch, a kick was just a kick. Then after after some training a punch became more than a punch, a kick more than a kick. Then after many more years of training a punch was just a punch, a kick was just a kick”. In other words, all your training leads you back to the beginning. Samurai called it a zen state of mushin. Having no mind, a state of calmness. You simply move. On second thought, I fault your Kenpo instructor for not understanding how to bridge the gap between the ideal and the what-if level. You quit too early when you noticed that things don’t anyways work. Don’t blame Kenpo if you couldn’t figure out answers.

    • Your inability to be successful in Kenpo training rests on you. — Steve Shaffer

      Rubbish– Kenpo doesn’t work because it can’t work because the moves cannot be pulled off on a resisting opponent. Karate blocks, checks, self-slaps, etc. are dandy on someone in a karate studio, but otherwise they’re worthless.

      Did Zane Frazier lose in UFC 1 because he, an IKC champion, couldn’t hit a block? What about the Jeff Newton, a student of Bob White, not being able to make it out of the 1st round of his UFC fight? Are they “unable to make Kenpo work” because of incompetent instruction and / or personal failure (like you claimed of Brandon)?

      When an Aikidoist can’t grab someone’s wrist and throw him head over heels is it because his basics suck or because Aikido can’t be made to work outside a dojo?

      What about Tai Chi? Certainly it will work if only its adherents performed it correctly? After all, wasn’t Grandmaster Sumthin the Invincible undefeated in so many gong sau matches?

      Would you agree Aikido or Tai Chi can fail because they’re illogical? (That one’s not rhetorical.)

      If yes, would it also be possible that Kenpo fails in combat because its moves are also illogical? If no, can we assume that all systems are combat worthy if only it’s adherents were not failures and / or had incompetent instruction?

  316. To former kenpo. Did u even read what steve shaffer wrote? Kenpo self defense is a training method to help transition to real fighting. In reality you to adapt to survive. A real fight never looks like a pre arranged set of moves. Self defense sets are just a vehicle to get you where your going, in a fight you have to transcend what you have learned cos as steve said a punch is a punch & a kick is a kick no matter what style you train in. If your in a real fight it comes down to timing, accuracy & power. You may hate the kenpo system & Ed Parker but his legacy will be remembered for generations to come. Why not offer something posetive instead of trying to tear down a dead man. Even if he wasn’t that great a practitioner, he still helped America & the world appreciate martial arts. As Bruce Lee said you should strive for form with formlessness. You obviously know nothing about tai chi cos although it’s a long road it really is about delivering the most efficient strike with the most power you can deliver. Anyone can throw a punch from any system they all have merit you just have to find the one that’s right for you as individual.

  317. Dear FK
    You throw around styles and people to make your point that Kenpo is rubbish. However assuming you have two arms and legs as I do then it’s a question of application. Which is my point. If I side kick your knee joint and tear your ACL, and call it a Kenpo Side Snap kick (Leaping Crane) and you call it a good ol’ stomp and tear me up, what the hell difference does it make? Do you see my point? It’s the practitioner applying force coupled with mass against a target. Kenpo is really nothing more than applied physics as are other systems. Aikido does work if applied correctly and out of the ideal training level. A opponent is resisting because he’s still mentally engaged. No ones going to willingly let someone apply a lock. A well placed strike followed by the lock would be a answer in that case. But not always. More strikes may be needed. You see that in Kenpo all the time. Even the great Larry Hartsell wrote a book on locks and called it Jeet Kune Do. Most of the moves were strikes followed by locks. Kenpo does the same thing. Crossing Talon is a cross wrist grab defense. To learn the mechanics a training partner allows you to be successful, then greater resistance is added to approach actual fighting, maybe it becomes a grab-punch, maybe you get the lock in but can’t apply the pressure on the elbow joint, what if what if. A good instructor helps the student explore these ideas. But in the beginning everything works according to plan.
    You got caught up in the clownish razzmatazz of self slaps ala Larry Tatum and his version of Kenpo, and miss the principle of simply keeping your hands up. Kenpo in reality can be brutal as my side kick example illustrates.
    Trust me, I get that techniques don’t work on resisting attackers. One has to be hitting hard to tranquilize them. I’ve tried to do Crashing Wings many times and it failed, simply because I wasn’t hitting him. That doesn’t negate the principle of leverage taught in the technique. The answer is to add insert strikes followed by the takedown. And if you can’t get the leg behind the attackers’ you do something else.
    It boils down to tools and targets man. The techniques are just road maps in the learning process.

    • Dear Steve,
      I believe that Larry’s book was called “Entering to Trapping to Grappling” and was considered as another art to be added, but was not in itself JKD. I believe that is why he started the Jun Fan Grappling Association.
      I also have a rather hard time with the word “physics” in your response. A concept like “vibrational transfer” has zero validity when it comes to physics. The concept of the “rebounding principle” is also not based in real physics as opposed to a “concept” from Ed and others with little science to back it up.
      You have also mentioned that some people verify stories about Ed Parker. Mills Crenshaw, who I proved was hardly telling the truth. Ron Chapel with the imaginary PhD in an imaginary major? Dr. Tigi Maatali with his fake ice breaks (he cored the center and one time the ice collapsed before he did the break and I personally witnessed his assistants using ice picks to greatly weaken the ice)? And “Dr. Tigi Maatali” is not a doctor. Although you did not merntion some pf these people I use it to point out that there is a lot of BS in the arts.
      I have videos out. Everybody seemed to be daring me to do them. Now there is this complete lack of videos of Ed, sort of a deafening silence when it comes to proof of ed’s abilities. And although the students you mentioned in Ireland may not have been great, it hardly explains Ed’s own lack of technique and one might say buffooninh attempt at a technique.
      Steve, it’s been too long! I hope all is well with you in Leon County Florida.

  318. I gave kenpo a pretty good try it was my religion for over 20 years. I do not fault my instructors how can they teach a system that they themselves can’t really use. I was amazed when i was a brown belt I went into a different school and totally different system and took some lessons. The funny thing was that in the beginners class there wasnt a student who had been there longer than six months, and i kept telling myself that I was going to kick these guys butts, they dont know anything, they are just begginers right? But amazingly I kept having to pick myself up off the floor. Again I guess they just didn’ know who i was supposed to be! I loved kenpo and still do. In regards to concepts and principles kenpo is second to none it gives a great many models and formulas to better understand the internal working of a fight. But it just doesn’t work against real attacks street speed. It is my favorite Martial Art (emphasis on ART) but it is not a practical fighting system. Just curious do you cross train in say boxing/or bjj?

    • Dear Brandon,
      I know that Sterling Peacock was one od Ed Parker’s students. I also think that he started before me. I have never met him.
      I have a hard time believing Ed would get in the ring, but I also must say that the outcome you mention makes sense. Kenpo vs boxer and the Kenpo guy gets KILLED!!!!!
      If you do not mind me asking this, but did you find that the techniques felt shall we say “jammed?” As if due to the fact that the initial impact did little and that left you without room to move? Did you also find that many of the strikes did not work as you were told they would? And did you also find that the blocking system was just too slow for real world fighting?
      I would appreciate your inputs.
      Thanks,
      Robert B. Libby

  319. If i may humbly add my 2 cents to brandon, i assume ur query was to steve shaffer, I totally respect your point of view & have crosstrained with many different people of different styles & point of view & have learned a great deal. In my former kempo school we were taught to take on what was useful & discard the useless. I personally live in a fairly safe city (brisbane australia) I haven’t come up against knives or multiple attackers. But I have had to sort out a couple of bullies successfully using kempo principles. I guess to each his own, I would like say to brandon I think it’s great you’ve found something that works for you. My first Kempo Shihan used to say to us ” if u can find a better martial art then go and do it” I personally told him I had & good luck. At that point I’d been training in Chen style tai chi for nearly two years in secret cos it was against their rules & their tai chi was a load of crap as well and told him so. To be honest if a person really wants hardcore real life self defense sometimes you to have to do your research to find wat it is that works for you. I have heard of so many former kempoists who have branched off into other areas because kempo gave them the foundation in principles to do so. I remember one instructor who’s name escapes me but he was/is world renowned & he specialized in knife work, this fellow did seminars around the world & advised many law enforcement agencies including American special forces & Russian sptetznaz , funny thing bout this guy was that he held his knife workshops in local abbotoirs so you could see jus what damage a knife does to flesh. I guess wat I’m getting at is he was a kempo guy till his path led him elsewhere. My respect to you brandon.

    • Could it be James Keating? He was taught I believe by Skip Hancock and James is great with blades. He has two things I know of called Comtech and The riddle of Steel. I have never worked with him but have used his videos.
      But I have never heard of him teaching in a slaughterhouse, but sounds like him somehow. I know that he used to have students train with baby oil on the arms as it is like fresh blood, or so I was told by some who worked with him.
      Robert B. Libby

  320. Robert. Sterling is now dead. He died of a heart attack I was told. But as to your questions regarding feeling jammed and speed issues etc. Yes I felt the same way but also noted that if I didn’t regulate my force the guy really wouldn’t be there for the following strikes. Take five swords for instance if I were to really penetrate and stick the guy with the first handsword he would usually be driven back and out of range thus causing me to alter the technique, but that is what kenpo is really all about anyway (at least for me) I found the most fun in finding ways to use the equation formula to fill the gaps. But my problem was the fact that they have to many tools in the tool box kinda thing. You don’t have time to think about what you should be doing because by the time you do you already should have. The system does incorporate methods to make everything more useful, such as family groupings, master key techs and basics, web of knowledge etc. But I found myself hard pressed to find people that wanted to practice in a meaningful way. They were only interested in getting the next belt and not actual proficiency. In mma and bjj schools the people are more interested in kicking your ass and not so much rank. Kenpo just needs to upgrade its training methods.

  321. Dear Former Kenpo, only bad talk. No Style can win a fight. Sounds like you never trained.

    • Jim, actually style can win a fight. If one system is just intrinsically better than it gives you an edge. Look at the legendary fight between “Gentleman” Jim Corbett and John L. Sullivan. Corbett had changed the footwork patterns and body movements of traditional boxing and won the day. It was very much this new “style” that gave Corbett the victory.
      Look at the Gracie fight against a Kenpo black belt. It was the srtyle that won the fight. Your argument is very commonly used in dojos to try and keep students and to derail real investigation into the analysis of fighting.

  322. Mr. Libby you are correct about the Hartsell book title. It’s a book on locks as a subset of his Jeet Kune Do using the entering ideas of JKD to trap and lock.
    As to physics, I was on the receiving end of a front kick in class that connected with my ribs. It didn’t matter what label one puts on the kick, my rib cracked and it took about 5 weeks to finally be pain free. Force=mass X acceleration. That’s the physics in talking about. Like your left hook smashing into a jaw!

  323. I hear a lot about the Kenpo alphabet. But your brain and body cannot use that much knowledge that quickly- sort of a sensory overload.
    So was Robert Sterling the knife guy you meant?
    Thanks

  324. I agree. 90% of the time you will never get a full technique out for various reasons, But I do think you use fragments of things you learn. I don’t think of things I have been thought are gold but merely suggestions, I know we use them to get to the next level or belt. But, as we all know combat is alive always changing. no trained fighter will stand there and let you hit them or give you their center line.

  325. I really can’t remember the knife guys name cos this was several years ago but at the time a kempo school in Sydney Australia was hosting him & he was doing seminars & workshops around Australia in abbotoirs so that really got our attention. The research I did on him was that he’d left kempo to study under a filipino eskrima & weapons grandmaster & had traveled the world advising various military & law enforcement in close quarters combat. This was nearly 10 years ago mind you, and my Google searches hav come up empty. I agree with brandon that Kempo needs keep up but that can be said for any style. One thing kempo does lack is effective knife & weapon self defense, Jeff Speakman had some cool knife stuff in some of his seminars our school attended but it was all quite fancy.

  326. What do you do when the “fragment” you use breaks your hand as it was incorrect from the start? How about a photograph of Ed Parker Jr, blocking a club strike with his forearm? How about Striking Serpent’s Head where the reverse back knmuckle is useless and leaves you open for a head butt, and literally invites the aggressor to head butt you? Many of these techniques actually put you in a worse position than you started, start with an ineffective strike, or use strikes that will injure you by using it ie Reverse Tiger’s Mouth, rising back knuckle to the chin, 1 o’clock punch, etc…

  327. You can prefix the back knuckle strike with a right inward heel palm/wrist strike to the maxillary hinge. That could serve to tenderize your opponent. Curious as to what you think is a more realistic response?

    • Brandon, what defense are you talking about? I am very leary with back knuckles. I have seen too many hand injuries from them. The palm heel to the jaw sounds fine. Practice it on a heavy bag like a hook punch.
      I just got the bad news today that from a motorcycle accident I have to have reconstructive surgery of my right shoulder. It should be arthroscopic so maybe 3 to 4 weeks off. But feel free to ask questions and I will try to help.

  328. I guess no ones happy unless someone’s sent to the hospital. — Steve Shaffer

    I clearly stated the critique that Parker’s motion was sloppy. It was. What was that little hand twirling around the belly near the end? The fact that no one got hurt during the embarrassing demo had nothing to do with what I said. Some KK folk move well without hurting anyone and I’ll freely admit it.

    You have a talent for straw men: last time I critiqued Parker’s motion you claimed that I said Kenpo had no basics, then spent 1,000 words refuting it, when I never said such a stupid thing.

    Ed Parker did not move well. Not sending people to the hospital and writing about stances in his books doesn’t change that.

    many old timers who have trained with and know about Ed Parker’s abilities from his early days. Seek these guys out and get first hand accounts of Ed Parker’s history. — Steve Shaffer

    Mills Crenshaw shared such a firsthand account when he told us about how Ed Parker beat 4 or more armed opponents on more than a half-dozen occasions. Parker’s history is one of grandstanding before hero-worshippers eager to believe his claptrap.

    Moreover, if you assume I haven’t learned from 1st generation BBs you’re wrong, and even more wrong if you think any of your venerated masters would last 5 minutes in a MMA match.

    You throw around styles and people to make your point that Kenpo is rubbish.

    Whether KK works is an empirical question. I’ve provided examples where it didn’t work for two of the best KK practitioners. Had KK absolutely dominated stand-up fighting that would be evidence that it works.

    The only situations where I’ve heard – never seen – of it working is when KK people brag about beating up some drunk in a bar, inevitably KTFO’ing the obstreperous drunkard. Why beating up drunks is the epitome of martial prowess is beyond me, but I figure Kenpoists must be the 2nd leading cause of blackouts in bars with all the drunken attackers they KTFO.

    Aikido does work if applied correctly and out of the ideal training level.

    Your defense of it is that it’ll work if you put an opponent out on his feet boxing style such that you can do anything you wanted to him? Not much of a defense of Aikido, but Aikido is indefensible; the sheer stupidity and mysticism of it are why we haven’t seen a single Steven Seagal style throw outside a scripted demo.
    Whether it works is an empirical question and the answer is clear.

    Dear Former Kenpo, only bad talk. No Style can win a fight. Sounds like you never trained. Jim

    Bad talk = judging your religion by evidence.
    As far as your never training accusation, that’s not a refutation of what I said, but I have and can say that when working MMA, you’ll NEVER block a punch, dodge the bears, kiss the peaches, choke the snake, or any other fantasies you have.

    It is my favorite Martial Art (emphasis on ART) but it is not a practical fighting system. Brandon

    KK is a lot like pro wrestling: it can look really cool if your partner is in on the act, but will not work IRL.

    If MA instructors were honest enough to tell their students this there wouldn’t be a problem . . . the students could determine whether they wanted to practice putting on a show or to go study a pragmatic system.

    My experience was similar to yours in that having a KK BB didn’t help much in MMA, but a sportive background sure did.

  329. Robert I was referring to your critique of the back knuckle strike in striking serpents head as being ineffective. I personally found that I could achieve effective power with that strike. I already have very effective responses to this particular attack personally. I’m not asking for a lesson. If I can’t figure it out some thirty years and multiple black belts later I might as well just give up and go play with my crayons. I was just curious as to what you consider a better response.

  330. Dear FK,
    While you do not see my response on basics as necessary, I’m also posting for others who may not be in the fray, but are reading this blog nonetheless. As far as Striking Serpents Head is concerned (in response to Mr. Libby), the point of the technique is to hit the attacker who has grabbed you. The attacker’s arms are occupied with hugging you, in this option your hands are free. The reverse back knuckle is directed at the mastoid behind the ear, it’s not meant to be the home run strike, but a filler move as you pull the attacker’s head back for the half fist strike to the exposed throat. If you understand the different ways to alter a technique, I encourage prefixes such as ear slap (cupping the hands) to blow out the ear drums, or striking with a reverse ridge hand, or middle knuckle strikes below the arm pits then move up to the head or grab him and hook his leg as he lets go, and trip him backwards. or strike with the right palm heel as Mr. Libby has agreed with. Or, you could skip the strike altogether and simply reach up and pull back hard on the head hooking inside the eye sockets, and down to compress the spine.
    The right hand is supposed to be up and guarding against the possible head butt. In fact, you could insert your own head butt if you deem it necessary. All the strikes you add to the mix are designed to get the attacker to let go. Contrary to the flaws described, by dropping your weight, and turning your waist with the reverse strike, you negate the grab somewhat as you strike. The technique is essentially a what if option should the attacker get inside your defenses. The goal is to move before the attacker locks in for a lifting action, or to trip you up, which opens up another discussion on what to do if you lose your footing.

  331. Once again Steve Shaffer has successfully explained how kenpo self defense should be applied to all the anti kenpo self defense critics & wat if scenarios they keep bringing up. The principles cannot be refuted only an individuals application can. All the kenpo detractors in this blog continually do, is bring up certain self defense scenarios & why think they won’t work. It’s funny although the haters talk about specific self defenses I haven’t heard anyone talk about core principles like cancelling the width or height, or point of origin etc not working. And to former kenpo who seems to think kenpo karate doesn’t work outside the dojo or mma & cites Zane Frazier & Jeff Newtons failure as his example. Well how bout Chuck Liddell then, he did pretty good didn’t he? Chucks timing, accuracy & power was like poetry in motion. And isn’t his coach John hackleman a former karate champion? What about Lyoto Machida? Also a master of timing accuracy & power. Oh wait, wasn’t Georges st pierre a karate guy too? George took on what was useful & surpassed all in his wake. So it seems to me some of the best fighters to ever enter the cage & be honored in the hall if fame honed their skills in a dojo. Mr Fk if you were a former kk bb you really sound like a negative close minded person, no wonder it wouldn’t work for you cos for all your arguments against kenpo there’s someone who has used kenpo or theyr other chosen martial art succesfully.

    • Okay- Steve has actually said little if anything And his track record is pretty bad. He stuck to Clutching Feathers and then in the end said “I guess it isn’t practical.” And as referenced before why was he afraid to face me with him getting all the odds. And then acted like a scared little school girl and said If I showed my face he would have the Leon County sheriff arrest me. And I was coming alone. So he and say 20 other people couldn’t handle me?
      As to cancelling the height and width is pure pseudoscience. When that is performed the height and width are perhaps lowered for a fraction of a second. Sure they are done with somebody playing along, but not in a real fight.
      Why do you people always throw in Chuck Liddel? He has never used a Kenpo or Kempo technique in MMA. Chuck is, to put it simply- a great striker and TOUGH GUY with great take down defense. When do you use take down defenses like his in Kenpo- When do you hook in Kenpo? And a key complaint of mine for decades. So they started in Karate. That sure as hell isn’t where they ended up. I still say glowing things about Scott Loring, Norm Pattiz, Paul Dalton, Bob Eisele, Albert Cornejo, and others. These were important people to me and they taught me a lot about life I might also add that we were trained in a very different way and did virtually no forms. We also did few techniques- we fought and did basics, Most of todays Kenpo practitioners would not last a day in the 60s as we actually got hit. That is why the 60s were referred to as the “blood and guts days of Karate.”
      I also love how you say “haters.” To brainwashed people anybody that dares to disagree, or as some would say, think, are branded as haters.
      Why do you still do the side-headlock escape (short form 3) with the palm up during the groin strike? It was shown 50 years ago that it could not be done and strikes the lower abdomen. In the same technique it was also shown that the double hitting technique (groin and back) has no power and is useless, yet Kenpo people still do it that way.
      I have also seen a reference to Ed Parker getting his ass kicked immediately by a boxer. That hardly supports the other stories told, and it is by a known Kenpo black belt.
      I am getting ready for a right shoulder operation as it seems to have turned out from a serious motorcycle accident that I have torn ligaments and tendons in my right shoulder (the MRI is tomorrow but my surgeon is quite sure as I cannot raise my arm). When I have rehabilitated the right shoulder I will be doing videos like crazy. I am so tired of frauds like Steve Shaffer in MA that I could puke. I really want people to realize how hard they are getting screwed by all the McDojos and high ranking frauds out there. And this is not just Kenpo. This is coming from all styles. So please watch Taking the Woo out of Mrtial arts, a two part panel on youtube.The PLEASE start looking around your school, analyze the techniques you are being taught, and realize that if you are not being hit, thrown to the ground, choked, and put to the test your school is crap.

    • Mr Fk if you were a former kk bb you really sound like a negative close minded person, — Chen Style

      The true measure of close-mindedness is how completely someone rejects feedback from reality; such as the creationists who insist the earth is 6,000 years old, the alt med quacks who say vitamin C cures AIDS and cancer, and the martial artists who reject the results of actual combat.

      no wonder it wouldn’t work for you cos for all your arguments against kenpo there’s someone who has used kenpo or theyr other chosen martial art succesfully.

      Kenpo always seems to work in “da street” — I’ve never seen it, but have often heard so from Kenpoists who seem to KTFO assailants regularly– but can’t seem to replicate the results under repeatable conditions; i.e. in a combat sport.

      Methods do matter as does the means of training them, otherwise medicine could be effectively practiced as adjusting the four humours and learned from practicing on squirrels.

  332. Well let me put my crayons down and I will respond.
    When you step and gp for the reverse back knuckle your head is wide open for s hesd butt. Now you say the reverse back knuckle was effective- I do not know who you hit with it but it is a weak strike. I once saw a guy get hit in the side of the head with a thrown tennis ball and start crying hysterically at 14 years of age- rather wimpy in my opinion.
    I would start with the hair grab or neck lock and put my thumb is his eye and secure that thumb with my fingermails digging into the ear on that side. Then maybe an elbow to the face and knee to the groin. If I get his head back far enough maybe hammering on the nose. I just cannot consider the reverse back knuckle to the mastoid or temple as a very good shot and leaves you far too open.

    • Hell just froze over! Amazing. Those counter attack options are actually great ideas. The eye gouge is a bit ‘nuclear’ but it all depends on the severity of the attack.

      • Gee thanls Steve- but Kenpo does not use a neck lock as it has few locks. And I basically count the technique as a bad one. Now where is the “HEY, that’s Kenpo!” It is merely a few moves. Also, Kenpo does not use a head butt as you posted earlier so it does not come naturally. Therefore it will not come at all.

  333. This is for foil first- I guess you are knew to this site. My name is Robert Libby.
    I just issued a chasllenge to Kenpo people, and one Steve Shaffer in particular- he ran away like a coward. And nobody else picked up the gauntlet. I also told people publicly when I would ne in Los Angeles and Dallas, Texas- nobody responded.
    In the early 1970s I chose of one Ron Wilstein as he abused some of my white belts while sparring with them, and it was not hearsay as I was there. I showed up at hos school the following Friday as agreed for a bare knuckle fight- he couldn’t show due to a pulled groin muscle- what a lie.
    I also chose off ed Parker, and is verified on this thread- he hid behind his wife as she called me to beg me not to “kill him.”
    So please spare me your bullshit. 99% of Kenpo people are useless in a fight and their techniques are a joke. Out of the former 128 technique system I PROVED to several Kenpo people that I could defaet 118 of the 128 techniques. They were shocked. 10 out of 128 isn’t even 8 percent effective, I then showed the how to make a few work or improve the viable few.
    I made a lot of the same comments as Ron is my student. So I guess I am an asshole to? Except I can prove what I say. I have chosed off 3 Kenpo people from 2nd to 10th degree and all folded.

  334. To Robert libby, man you have a huge chip on your shoulder can you even keep track of how many people you’ve challenged over the years? Iv read everything you’ve posted & your aggression toward those you feel wronged you is on another level. At first I didn’t know wat to think of you but your war of words with mills & then steve shaffer seemed very childish from someone who apparently went through the blood & guts era of kenpo karate. For wat it’s worth I actually believe your account of things but I also equally believe tom bleeker who you seem to have a good deal of respect for & rightly so. He said you should keep your fueds private. Why haven’t you heeded his advice instead you continually bang the same drum. I feel sorry for you in truth cos through your words & analysis it seems you’ve got a great deal to offer as an instructor but it’s like you’ve got something to prove to the world. Tom said your creds chek out & that’s good enough for me so as the joker says ” why so serious” your the only guy who has threatened violence to others & it’s so pathetic & redundant. I mean seriously who wants to fight an old man? What honor is there in that? Ooooo somebody said something I don’t like, come on man get real. Instead of fueding with Steve you should be collaborating with him, it’s guys like you who can bring self defense into a new era. Like I said I do believe your account of events concerning ed parker, however tom bleeker responded to several of the initial queries concerning Ed with diplomacy & respect to all parties including you Robert. With respect to tom bleeker why don’t you show some class & instead of challenging people why not put on master class seminars & respectfully invite people like steve shaffer to attend. Also Steve shaffer is active in his community & attempts to contribute something posetive to his corner of the world. I respect many of your opinions but you ruin your own integrity by bouts of unreasonable aggression. You’ve insulted so many people on this blog unnecessarily & I’m just trying say you don’t need to do that. No one will respect you for that no matter how many videos you post. When you recounted to tom some of your old days you revealed many posetive experiences you’ve had with kenpo & people you trained with, it’s like you were a different person . But you still hold on to old rivalries, there’s no future in that. I suggest you either get some conflict resolution counselling or maybe speak to tom bleeker some more cos his example is one you could learn a lot from, after all he is your senior & a man of great wisdom. Sorry if I come off high & mighty but like I said these same old arguments you make are like a circle & i truly believe you could be helping others & yourself more by giving them the benefits of your many years of real world experience. I wish you the best for your health mr libby, I also have daughters myself so I relate to you in many ways. Be safe sir, I also consider you my senior & man worthy of respect.

    • So in thinking are you talking about me choosing off Ed Parker and Ron Wilstein? Only a coward wouldn’t have.
      Ron Wilstein slapped around and humiliated 2 of my 14 year old students ay his school. I chose him off right there in defense of two barely teenage children as any caring instructor would. So you feel that a 21 year old black belt should not be confronted for attacking kids? You feel that I as their instructor should not have intervened on their behalf? If you feel that way you are nuts.
      I called Ed Parker as he called the health club and lost me my job and said “I will come down there and start hurting his students.” So you feel that Ed Parker should just get a pass after acting like a fool, hurting me, and threatening beginning students when he was a 5th degree black belt? And after listening to a pure BS story from an idiot. If that is what you are referring to as me being a lunatic for choosing them off then I agree, I am a lunatic that ALWAYS protected his students.
      The guy I slammed into a fence kicked my puppy. So I should allow the prick to kick a baby dog? Smmes like Ed, Ron, and the dog kicker needed help far more than me.

  335. You seem to be missing the point that it is a two way street. And I can at least admit when I am wrong or apologize. Has Mills ever apologized for calling me a liar and fraud? Has Steve Shaffer who said “I teach on Thursday, come by anytime” and then says he will have me arrested?
    I am a counter puncher usually. But I have taked a lot of heat over this, and I knew I would. But to be blunt there are so many liars and fakes in this it is ridiculous. And some of your commenst are just as absurd. Okay, you are a Kenpo acolyte. But do not feel that because Kenpo is the second biggest system in the world gives it a free pass or the right to lie. FAce the fact that your analysis is crap and full of holes. I believe that is what is really getting to you. And from 56 years in the arts I know that a lot of people are lying on this thread to protect Kenpo. I know BS when I read it.

  336. One other point. Who did I threaten with violence other than Snibbs for insulting my wife? I never threatened Steve Shaffer. I said it would be friendly an laid out the rules. I nevr threatehed Mills or anybody else.
    What I see here is you would love for me to shut up as I can rip EPAK to ribbons analytically, and with videos. My chip is against frauds that put people at risk and basically steal their money.

  337. You make some good points Robert. However thuggery begets thuggery. All the best in your future endeavors.

  338. Actually you are absolutely right Robert, thanks again for your honesty, I know you’ve taken a lot of shit. Iv actually done a bit of research on not just you but a lot of players from the early days of epak. Let me firstly say that mills creds are a bit suspect & i am as I actually & stated earlier, an ex kempo practitioner. I said in my previous post that i can relate to you, kempo seems to polarise certain people. My experience was not as extreme as yours but my first Kempo Shihan was a man of 30 years plus experience & wasn’t that great in hindsight but we listened to his bullshit all the same. That is until my head instructor said we should incorporate the AKK self defense into our system. Long story short it tore our school in half. The Shihan accused his student, who was his heir & protégé for 15yrs of usurping his authority & demanded all the videos he had, which he took with his own camera out of his own pocket & threatened legal action when he refused. After my instructor formed his own school, The Shihan hosted Jeff Speakman several times. We tried to attend one these seminars & the shihan singled out several of us including my instructor refusing us entry even after we had payed our money. The Shihan said we owed him for unpaid fees or some crap, Jeff did come & calm things down cos my instructor was about blow a gasket. Out of respect to Jeff we left but that was infuriating & very embarrassing. We didn’t miss much as one their black belts was training with us in secret & videoed the seminar anyway. So I can understand your animosity to ED cos this shihan was like that to us. Apart from that I had mostly good experiences with kempo & training. As you stated in one of your earlier posts that you should be hit, thrown to the ground & choked well that’s exactly how we trained. Several us more hardcore students had our own little fight club where we pushed the boundaries so if we did get in real fight we weren’t gona be shocked. We also cross trained with other guys & styles & formed a great network of MA friends. My former Sifu went on to hold multi style seminars inviting anyone to join & share knowledge. Personally I look at other M Artists & brothers& sisters & we should look out for each other & share knowledge to make us better people in general. Sorry to Robert libby if I seemed critical, I jus think a person of your stature doesn’t hav to prove himself to anyone here.

  339. Thanks for going a little deeper. And what was so strange was that after I left I would go by the EP school and visit people. There was zero heat and zero problems. I would sit out front and shoot the bull with friends and it was very friendly.
    I just got my MRI report and it is worse than we thought. I have 2 completely torn tendons, 1 completely torn ligament, and a torn labrim from the 9 o’clock to 12 o’clock position. So the surgery will ne a little more complex and longer time off. Anyway, thanks for checking things out.

  340. Your welcome Robert I hope thing work out for you & your family.

  341. Hey Robert I was wondering if you could shed some light on one the guys you trained with. I came across an old blog from years ago & they were talking about a fellow he was a pretty big dude, ex Vietnam vet. One story was that he was a bouncer at a biker bar & one time he told these guys to settle down, gave a few chances then kicked them out. One guy had a go & he dealt with him & apparently he wiped the blood off this guy & smeared across his face & said to rest of his buddies who’s next & they hightailed it out of there. Another story goes & this was wen I saw your name mentioned that he & some buddies were playing pool & they got into bar fight & the cops came & through em all in jail & you were apparently only about 16 but had a car & you helped bail them out. Is this the same guy who would take you out the back, dressed in jeans & combat boots & trained you very hard? I also heard that you were tough as nails & kept coming back for more. Also was this same guy who was passed out with a cheerleader in the dojo one Saturday morning with the kids ready to do a class?

  342. Yes- that was Larry Hartsell. He is known as a grappler, but he is a boxer, great with weapons, was a fantastic kicker, and phenomenal at trapping. He really was the total package.
    The wipimg the blood on his face happened while he was bouncing at a bar called the Beaver Inn. Larry usually came in on Saturdays and had maybe had a few cocktails. He always loved teaching people so he would teach me. And the story of him on the mats with a cheerleader is true. I did go to get him out of the West LA policce station. I went with Norm Pattiz and Paul Dalton. They called my house at like 6:30am on a Saturday. I told my parents it was a problem at the school so they were okay with my leaving.
    But to be fair, Tom Bleecker knows Larry a lot better than I do. You see all of them were in their 20s or older. One day Larry said to me “let’s go get a beer.” I said “Larry, I’m only 16 and my folks would kill me.” As I was in the Monday-wednesday fighting class under Norm Pattiz people thought I was older.
    But training with Larry was great. He was insanely knowledgable. But he would HIT you. The worst was a Chinese push kick in the thighs or shins while he had on combat boots. He did a great book called “Entering to Trappimg to Grappling.” He just died like 2 years ago from some form of cxancer.

  343. Thanks for your insight Robert. The more I learn about you & the early days the more my respect grows for you. Even though like you I’m a former kempo guy I try to learn what I can my predecessors & what they’ve contributed. I’m curious as to your opinion of the Tracey’s side of things. Particularly as I believe one of their websites or blog I have come across shed a bit of doubt on mills Crenshaw & his creds. I don’t mean to keep opening old wounds but I find your insight to be most edifying.

  344. Okay. When I started we had 3 schools- Santa Monica, Pasadena, and Crenshaw. We were all very friendly, but were all sort of doing our own thing.
    When it came to the Tracys they were “the Kenpo guys up north.” They were more in the Stockton and Sacramento areas as